Interns fired en masse for protesting dress code

[Kad]

Basically, they get a temp that they can abuse during the length of their internship, and it costs them less money than hiring a "real" temp.

 

Who wouldn't want to be an intern?! You're a temp the company can abuse and you get paid in experience! 

[wonderfulwizard11]

"Maybe we have a disconnect regarding the meaning of the word, "essential" and its use in regards to "my being there". If your presence was "essential to the function of the company", they certainly must have shuttered their doors by now (because you are no longer there). Is that the case?"

My point was not that I was irreplaceable, but that I was providing a services that were necessary to the function of the company. I wasn't getting coffee for people and standing around "observing"- once I was trained (which took about a week) I was *working*. 

At a certain point, I just don't buy that internships don't count as work because they have an end date. That's just splitting hairs, but it still doesn't prove a vast difference between an internship and professional employment. 

As for on the job experience, sure, having that is helpful! But having done one internship often does not mean companies consider you qualified- I have seen numerous job listings described as entry-level that ask for 2 years experience. I don't deny that having internships is helpful to the intern, but I think you are vastly overstating their usefulness and at the end of the day it doesn't change my point because you can't eat job experience and you can't pay rent with professional connections. 

Edited to add: I should also say something like student teaching bothers me less. In that field, real-world experience is obviously necessary before full-time employment. Plus, any of my teacher friends did their student teaching while still in school, and it essentially was their coursework for the semester. However, most internships don't function like that- if they're done in school, it's work in addition to unrelated coursework. 

[javero]

"You mean the character from a TV show that was a caricature of the hardline conservative that was to be laughed at, not with, played by a bigger Liberal than Rob Reiner?"

That would be the one.  Norman Lear originally envisioned the character as a very unlikeable one but Archie somehow became one of the most endearing characters in what is routinely referred as one of the greatest TV series in history here in the States.  The character has also been used by pollsters and pundits to describe a class of voters who will most likely come out in support of The Donald.  It's a cliche, but thanks to film, TV, and now social media, life imitates art more often than art imitates life.

Archie Bunker Was Satire. Today, He's a Few Steps from the White House

[Kad]

Thank you, wonderfulwizard11.

Unpaid internships- which typically require several days (and I've seen some that require every weekday) a week, during full office hours- are something that many millennials simply can't afford. An internship schedule means you will be forced to part-time work- often low paying service positions, as they have the most flexible schedules- that cannot cover rent, food, bills, and student loans (for that specialized degree for the field you want to pursue... which now qualifies you to do the unpaid internship that will hopefully eventually get you an entry-level job, unless you went to a top-tier school). This means that credit cards will be used to cover the expense gap, which is now just another thing to pay.

Unless you are being supported by family money, it is hard to do the unpaid work when you're out of school and on your own.

[javero]

"Unless you are being supported by family money, it is hard to do the unpaid work when you're out of school and on your own."

Deja vu...being a pragmatic person, I didn't do an internship back in 1987.  The stock market had gone tits up forcing companies to suspend on-campus recruiting right and left.  I took a low-paying service position, networked like hell, and saved until I had enough money to relocate to a larger city.  After the move and months of temping, things finally started to happen for me career-wise thanks to a connection I made through a family member who was an engineer at an oil company.  It write all of this to suggest that it's still all about who you know.  If you can afford to take an internship, at least with my present employer, the "contacts" alone are invaluable.  If not, find a hiring official and sleep with him or her b/c it's all about who you know.  

[BroadwayNYC2]

The argument in support of unpaid internships disturbs me. Experience is not a currency. If you can't afford to pay them, than you can't afford to have them. 

[yankeefan7]

"They weren't very compassionate about the disabled vet. Their response to finding out why she had to wear different shoes because she lost a leg in service to our country was "if we had known about this we would have factored it into our argument," meaning they still would have moved forward with their demands, but they would have included what I'm sure would be the pivotal reason why these self-entitled brats should get the same freedom to change their footwear as a wounded war vet who lost her leg defending this country. I mean, just because she lost a leg shouldn't give her the right to wear shoes that make her life a little easier and more comfortable, Right?"

 

Excellent post.

[John Adams]

wonderfulwizard, was/were there any factor(s) that motivated you to take on an internship in spite of the knowledge that you would not receive a livable wage?

I agree with both you and Kad that internships are not a reliable form of income, but that's always been true. Was there a motivation that might have made you feel that the return was valuable enough to make the investment in spite of the guaranteed lack of income? (as opposed to skipping the internship and moving directly into the job market where the was a little more opportunity to earn a livable income.)

[bwayrose7]

John Adams, while I can't speak for any experience outside my own, I believe a crucial factor for accepting unpaid internships is that most entry-level paid positions ask for semi-considerable experience, even though they themselves are supposed to be entry-level jobs where one gets experience. The only solution, then, is to have an internship. Companies know this, and while some use the system as it's "supposed" to work (gaining experience, connections, other perks), many use it as a means of getting free labor without giving anything in return, but students still take the positions because what other choices do they have for relevant experience?

I too am not much older than the interns in this article, and I think there's a world of difference between the debate over the unpaid internship system and complaining about a dress code. While my generation has come of age in an era where dress codes are getting more and more flexible and more and more company-culture-specific, getting riled up over something as simple as shoes seems rather petty to me. 

[Jane2]

I'm sorry but I think it takes a lot of nerve for a group of people who are not even employees of a company, who are there ostensibly to learn under the rules of the company,  to  petition for a change in a long time established policy of said company. Colossal nerve and mistaken entitlement. No one forced them to take the internship. Good for that company!

[John Adams]

^

Speaking personally, I don't see any reason to be sorry.

[John Adams]

bwayrose7 said: "I too am not much older than the interns in this article, and I think there's a world of difference between the debate over the unpaid internship system and complaining about a dress code. "

I agree, and I see the diversion in topic as a kind of 'smokescreen' to divert attention from the obvious.

Also, I happen to agree with everything else you wrote in spite of Kad's cherry-picking.

[Jane2]

Force of habit John!

??

[Taryn]

I'm a regular reader of Ask A Manager, so I read this post the day it went up.  Allison's response (which is here) is a lot more compassionate -- and a lot more reasonable -- than just doing a whole "kids today!!" millennial bashing fest.  What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that internships are often a young person's first exposure to an office setting, and they're not just learning the specifics of the industry -- they're learning how offices work in general.  This kind of group boundary-pushing is something that could work in a school setting, and might even be encouraged in terms of students organizing and writing down their thoughts and putting their names to paper.  The fact that offices are really dictatorships -- some benevolent, some less so -- is not something people come into things automatically knowing.

Was it a pretty stupid, misguided thing to do?  Yeah.  In the original blog response, Allison says she probably wouldn't fire them but would be having some really stern conversations about it, and I think I'd probably end up someplace similar.  But I think it's dumb and misguided to say that this is an example of millennial entitlement like no other generation made big mistakes earlier in their professional careers because of not knowing all of the norms and rules of offices.  She also added the following update at the top of the post since I read it because of how much it's been going around:

A note about this post, which is being linked to from all over the internet: This situation is not about “young people today.” The letter-writer’s generation is far from the first to bridle at dress codes or misunderstand office culture or start out with little knowledge of how things work in offices. This is about being young and new to the work world, not about what generation they belong to. Most of us made plenty of mistakes when we first started work — I certainly did. So please go a little easier on this person.

It's also totally unrelated to the argument over unpaid internships (which are, in fact, mostly illegal unless they fulfill specific guidelines that most of them don't).  There's no indication either way that the person's internship was unpaid, although it sounded to me like more of a prestigious internship in something like finance or something similar, which is more likely to be paid.

[BeadleDeedle]

I really can't believe that some older posters are defending the use of nonpaid interns as "employed" by corporate america today. Its a huge issue thats been discussed ad nauseum over the last few years.

 

The climate is drastically different than when you first joined the work force. Enlightening to see some of my favorite posters so quickly dismiss the plight of so called Millenials with such vitriol. 

 

And the OP's "article" is not very clear on actual facts. And it clearly has a bias. Seems like a lot of hearsay. Actually, it just seems like one of those clickbaity things people post of facebook to get older people riled up. 

[wonderfulwizard11]

John Adams, bwayrose7 more or less stated my reasons pretty clearly. I of course would have preferred to go straight to an entry level wage, but in almost any industry that simply isn't possible. So, I did what everyone else has to do- it doesn't mean I like it, but I didn't really have any other choice. Personally, the company I worked for also provided me with a wider range of training than I would have received other places, and it was certainly a job- one of my supervisors said that eventually the goal is to have my position be permanent, but because the money isn't there as a small non-profit, it's not in the cards yet. Despite that, they recognized the value of paying me for my time, and also understood that I needed to hold down other jobs and thus were understanding if I couldn't be available every day. 

In my search, I also didn't apply for unpaid internships, which certainly limited my prospects, but it was a better choice for me. 

[PalJoey]

 

I really can't believe that some older posters are defending the use of nonpaid interns as "employed" by corporate america today. 

 

No one here is discussing unpaid internships. We're all discussing paid internships. That's the only kind any company does anymore.

 

[Jordan Catalano]

I've said for years that I think unpaid internships need to be outlawed. I've never heard one single argument that even remotely justifies their existence. 

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Taryn said: "I'm a regular reader of Ask A Manager, so I read this post the day it went up.  Allison's response (which is here) is a lot more compassionate -- and a lot more reasonable -- than just doing a whole "kids today!!" millennial bashing fest. 
 

I'm increasingly curious how the Millennial-bashing got so out of hand over the last five or six years especially. It's everywhere. It has grown so insufferably ubiquitous, yet I've seen so little actual evidence in the real world to merit it. It's almost laughable how irrationally angry some people get about the Millennials. Past generations have always complained about "kids these days", a phrase that gained currency with the Boomers' own generational clash with their parents. But, unlike the Boomers, Millennials haven't even done anything drastic to merit the vitriol. They simply have had the misfortune to exist. They exist at a time when it's easy for the media to fabricate outrage and indignation, predicated a flimsy series of click-bait articles that bring attention to random improprieties of random members of their generation. In the olden days of the Internet (circa 1999), we called it RO or "recreational outrage." Internet trolls started out as people who got their jollies by seeing just how much anger, outrage, or emotional reactivity they could get out of someone with minimal effort.
 
Only now, the media have become the trolls. And people take the bait time and again without any hesitation.

[Platypus]

I don't know about the US, but unpaid internships are illegal here in Canada, with the exception of practicums as part of a post-secondary program or when required as training to enter a profession. However, Ontario does a list of a few other exceptions, that I am sure can be exploited.

I am technically a member of this so-called "Millennial" generation, as I was born in 1984. However, so much about how that "Ask the Manager" letter irks me.

1. The wording " the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code " - If they were allowed, then they are not disobeying anything. An exception was made due to a unique need. This is called equity. It is a concept that everyone entering the workforce needs to understand. Even the wording reeks of entitlement.

2. " You can’t even tell, and if we had known about this we would have factored it into our argument. "  - So if something is not immediately obvious to you, then it is safe to make assumptions and throw a fit until you get your way?

3. " I have never had a job before (I’ve always focused on school)"- The last time I checked, the school year is about 10 months long in high school and 8 months long in university. Did you also need 2-4 summer months of doing nothing/partying/socializing to focus on school? This is a very special kind of Millennial. I went to private school, surrounded by upper class and upper-middle class kids, and I don't think I've ever encountered a single person who made it through university without working a single job. My parents were very generous when it came to helping me pay for school, and they did want me to be able to focus on school rather than my finances, but the financial assistance always came with expectation that I would work in the summer to earn some extra cash. I'm amazed that this person was even able to get an internship with zero work experience. In my field, internships were so competitive that you worked your way through school even if you didn't need to, just to have experience to list on your resume. I worked 2 jobs along with 2 volunteer positions during my last year in undergrad, both for the experience and the money.

However, despite the ridiculousness of these actions, I do think the company could have started off with a warning. The purpose of an internship is to prepare these interns for the working world. In the working world, if you are past your probation period, you are given a series of warnings (and Performance Improvement Plans, etc.) before you are fired. They won't just fire you after one annoying action, in fear of being sued. So shouldn't this situation have been approached similarly? Sit them down and explain that the rules and policies are well-established and will not be changed to meet the demands of temporary interns (I like how Alison called them "guests" in her reply). Maybe explain to them why the dress code is what it is. Then explain to them that this whole meeting was a waste of everyone's time, and petitions are not how change happens in the corporate world. Then tell them that if they waste the company's time again, then they will be fired. It would be a great lesson for all, and the company would still have interns to abuse and do their dirty work. Plus I'm sure they'd be a lot quieter and cooperative.

[BeadleDeedle]

PalJoey said: " 
 

We're all discussing paid internships. That's the only kind any company does anymore.

 

No offense PJ but thats just not true. A simple Google search will show you all the unpaid internships available in NYC right now. I have several friends currently in unpaid internships, in both finance and the entertainment industry. While the job market has improved in the last few years, its still pretty treacherous for younger people, especially those living in cities. 

 

 

[Fantod]

1. These interns are morons

2. I don't think this is an example of a larger systemic problem, and think that "kids these days" complaints have been going on as long as there have been kids.

3. Unpaid internships are very common (my sister is doing one now), especially if you want to go in to any market other than corporate or publishing, and need to be outlawed.

[Jane2]

re generalizing about millennials: First of all, when we discuss different generations of people, or genres of music, or styles of art, etc., we DO generalize. Different groups are known for certain identifying aspects. We don't discuss random individual cases which do not fit the stereotypes. So, we are generalizing in this thread.

The characteristics of millennials are not just complained about by us "AARP's"  in this thread on a message board. Rather, it's what is thought by the society, from their experiences. You read about it, see it on tv, and experience it. So, you who fit that title can deny it all you want, but it's there.

[bwayrose7]

Echoing what everyone else here is saying- unpaid internships are quite common and are in fact a cornerstone of most universities' career counseling centers. And many don't even have a real "contract" of employment or are liable to change responsibilities on a dime.

I'm in graduate school right now and fortunate enough to have a paid position as a TA/instructor, in addition to other part-time jobs, and there are clear guidelines as to what my job entails. A few years ago as an undergrad, however, I had an unpaid internship because that was supposed to give me "experience." The job posting was for a political researcher at a small nonprofit (I was studying political science at the time... dark days, y'all).

As soon as they realized I was an excellent writer, however, my job mysteriously shifted to writing position statements and case studies for publication. I was concerned about this expansion of my role and workload, but was assured my name would appear on them and I could use them as portfolio builders, no problem. When the time came, however, my work was instead attributed to the organization as a whole, and indirectly implied to be the work of the higher-ups. I had no recourse, because technically, the organization did include me so it wasn't a lie or a misrepresentation. I was left with just a cut-and-paste recommendation letter that was useless. Fortunately, I changed fields and that experience cost me nothing more than a wasted summer, but it was a real wake-up call to the feeling of powerlessness as an intern.

I did, however, wear decent (albeit comfy) black flats to work every day and never complained

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Jane2 said: "re generalizing about millennials: First of all, when we discuss different generations of people, or genres of music, or styles of art, etc., we DO generalize. Different groups are known for certain identifying aspects. We don't discuss random individual cases which do not fit the stereotypes. So, we are generalizing in this thread.

The characteristics of millennials are not just complained about by us "AARP's"  in this thread on a message board. Rather, it's what is thought by the society, from their experiences. You read about it, see it on tv, and experience it. So, you who fit that title can deny it all you want, but it's there."

You can generalize about a genre of music or styles of art or a certain cuisine (although doing so will always tend to diminish the accuracy of discussion on those topic). But to generalize a whole cohort of the human population is not reasonable. Most of us would find generalizing people based on their race/ethnicity or their gender or sexual orientation distasteful. Certainly, plenty of people do so. Many of us have the misfortune of being friends or family with people who will latch onto every article on, say, crimes committed by blacks or Muslims as opportunities to level categorical judgments on people in those categories. Why is, then, permissible to label people "self-entitled brats" based on the year in which they were born? We don't choose our age any more than we do our race or sexual orientation.

Yes, the interns in this case acted like unconscionable dumbasses. But I am really tired of otherwise reasonable people mindlessly jumping to make withering pronouncements about an entire generation of people. It serves no purpose. I'm not even a Millennial. I'm just sick of this crap.

[HorseTears]

I was going to respond further to this thread, but what the ****, instead, I'd like to announce that MikeInTheDistrict is now my official spokesperson.