Minor Question About a Random Song Lyric in "Natasha, Pierre, and the Great Comet of 1812"

[MadAboutTheBoy]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 3:44pm

This is such minor quibble, but it has been nagging at me the past few days. I've recently discovered "Natasha, Pierre, and the Great Comet of 1812" and have been listening to the songs on YouTube. What a gorgeous libretto! I'm really hoping to see a performance sometime in the new future. But when I first listened to the song "Charming," I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the artist was singing in the line, "Oh how she blushes, how she blushes, my pretty! Oh how she blushes, how she blushes, my pretty! Charmante, charmante! You are such a lovely thing." She pronounces "charmante" as "shontee", with almost three syllables and a long e at the end.  I had to look up the lyrics and then I realized what she was saying, but the way it's pronounced is so distinctly different that it threw me a bit.

Can anyone shed any light on why she pronounces this word like this? With my limited knowledge of French pronunciation notwithstanding, I'm pretty sure "charmante" is pronounced using just two syllables and a pronounced "t" at the end. With the singer's pronunciation, it sounds like a totally different word. Is there some particular reason I'm missing for this? Thanks!

[aimeric]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 4:54pm

Nope, you're pretty much right.  On the cast recording and in every production, Helene seems to have been instructed to pronounce "charmante" as "shar-mon-tay," which is incorrect.  (I also had to look it up in the libretto after hearing it a few times and not being able to work it out.  )  In spoken French the final "e" would be totally silent, while in sung French it could be pronounced as a separate syllable, but that would come out sounding more like "shar-mon-tuh" and certainly not whatever the heck she sings in the show.  It's the one bit of French used in the show that really bugs the crap out of me, mostly because she repeats it like twenty times... >__<

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 5:07pm

Could it be to show she's actually isn't as educated/classy as she'd like to think?

[aimeric]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 5:24pm

Sure, I guess that's a possible reading in the context of the musical, though the book makes it pretty clear that high-class Russians of that time were speaking fluent French all the time at court.  Since Helene is quite the toast of society in the book, I would think her French would've been perfect...Honestly, I always just thought they found it was easier to pronounce "shar-mon-tay" while singing than "shar-mon-tuh," but it was something I had hoped they might change for the Boston production.  They did not, so yeah, maybe there's supposed to be some underlying point there...?

[KCW]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 5:37pm

You are overlooking the fact that "Helene is a slut" as stated in prologue. I think Dramamama is right, it it to talk about the behind the curtain of the character. I personally pardon her french as I don't know the language, but I could see how it could drive one crazy. As a side note, I think that Charming is the strongest song, and hope you get to see the amazing show, Mad About the Boy.

[aimeric]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 6:05pm

Lol, I'm not sure what being a slut has to do with one's ability to pronounce French properly.  I've no doubt there are a good number of sluts in France and elsewhere who are perfectly capable of pronouncing "charmante."   That said, if they are intending to make the joke that she's dumb and hence her French sucks, wouldn't that joke only really land if the majority of the audience knows French enough to catch it...?  As for "Charming" itself, murky French aside, I agree that it is really a "charmante" song.  :)  

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 6:19pm

I've never read War & Peace, so any comments I make are strictly based on seeing the Boston production.

 

My take on Helene and Anatole is that they are social climbers, Helene in a loveless marriage (which she thought would give her status); Anatole never having any money and mooching off everyone.   Both are looking out for themselves and their status only. 

 

I think that's one reason they are so close...only they truly know each others background, and also, why Helene is so eager to lead Natasha astray....to be better than she.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/5/16 at 7:09pm

You speak Russian as your native language and get those damn French pronunciations right.

[Kad]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 11:21am

Considering the production adjusted their pronunciation of Moscow (from mos-COW to mos-COH), I would assume there is some reason for the pronunciation of charmante.

Dramamama, for someone who has not read the novel, that's a pretty accurate reading of both characters.

Helene is actually depicted as being pretty dumb in the novel, but is an expert social manipulator so the rest of the high society regards her highly.

[aimeric]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 12:45pm

Yeah, I did notice the change of pronunciation of "Moscow" in the Boston production, which I can't really comment on since I know zero Russian.  And it's funny, because I remember wondering before seeing that production whether they would work more with some of the cast on their French, esp. Lucas Steele, and when I saw it, it seemed to me that they actually did, because Steele seemed to handle his French lines a bit better than he does on the recording (the line in the opera box scene, "What makes a town special, ce sont les jolies femmes, isn't that so?" still makes me cringe a bit when I listen to the recording).  And it's also weird that Helene's other French line in "Charming" ("Alliez dans le monde plutôt que de dépérir d'ennui!" also has pretty iffy pronunciation at times, but at least it sounds like they're trying to have her go for proper pronunciation.  So why the wackiness on "charmante"?  I dunno, they like it that way, obviously.

 

As for book!Helene, yeah, she's said to be stupid, but also clever enough to hide her stupid--all she has to do is keep quiet and everyone thinks she's "deep."  The thing is, while she is in a marriage that she thinks will bring her advantage, she's not really after a title (I mean, she was already born a princess), but after Pierre's money.  It's not high breeding that she lacks, hence I still don't really think her French would suck.  This is the book I'm talking about here, of course--the musical could be argued to be its own thing (I mean, look at how many fundamental personality changes were made to characters like Eponine and Enjolras in adapting Les Mis from book to musical...).  

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 1:20pm

I don't know the score - I know, I should! - but could it be that Helene - wrongly! - is affecting a three syllable word meaning "I am charmed" - akin to the "I am enchanted" of the three syllable en-chan-te?  (or in her case, enchantee - as corrected, see below; although, yes, the correct word would be the two syllable char-me(e)), but perhaps Helene is being vacuous or merely silly and playfully inventive or perhaps that she's, though fluent, a bit of a Malaprop)

Updated On: 1/6/16 at 01:20 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 1:21pm

I remember the late Peter Jennings explaining, "There is no 'cow' in Moscow," and I've pronounced it "koh" ever since, which many people have pushed back on. 

[aimeric]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 1:35pm

It's pretty hypocritical of me, since I'm so whiny about the French in this thing, but I'll admit that I kinda miss the earlier (apparently wrong) pronunciation of "Moscow," if only because I'll really miss that delightfully bizarre drag that Malloy wrote for that word in the line that Pierre sings to Anatole: "Tomorrow you must get out of Moscooooowwwww."

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 1:51pm

henrikegerman said: "I don't know the score - I know, I should! - but could it be that Helene - wrongly! - is affecting a three syllable word meaning "I am charmed" - akin to the "I am enchanted" of the three syllable en-chan-te?  (yes, the correct word would be the two syllable char-me, but perhaps Helene is being vacuous or merely silly and inventive or perhaps that she's, though fluent, a bit of a Malaprop)"

 

This is actually what I thought too, until I saw this thread.

[Kad]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 2:18pm

It had been explained to me that way, as well, but, being a non-French speaker, I didn't feel comfortable commenting.

[newintown]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 2:25pm

It should also be pointed out that Russians don't call the town "Moscow" at all, but rather "Mockba" which is pronounced mahs-KVAH (with the emphasis on the second syllable).

 

How that became "Moscow" to English speakers is unknown, particularly as it's very easy for us to pronounce (unlike, say, "München," the German name for what we call "Munich".

Updated On: 1/6/16 at 02:25 PM

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 3:20pm

 

A third for henrik's reasoning.  That's always what I'd thought, as well.

[aimeric]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 3:44pm

henrikegerman said: "I don't know the score - I know, I should! - but could it be that Helene - wrongly! - is affecting a three syllable word meaning "I am charmed" - akin to the "I am enchanted" of the three syllable en-chan-te?  (yes, the correct word would be the two syllable char-me, but perhaps Helene is being vacuous or merely silly and inventive or perhaps that she's, though fluent, a bit of a Malaprop)"

 

I actually thought exactly this the first time I heard the song, like, 'oh ****, is there some verb charmanter that I've never heard of, and this is the adjectival form...?'  That's exactly what it sounds like it should be, phonetically.  But if this is what they were going for, it would be spelled "charmantée" in the libretto, and it's not.  The libretto provided in the CD booklet is actually pretty good with its accents on the French words, IIRC, and I remember when I looked this one up, fully expecting to see something like charmantée, nope, it was written just plain charmante, as in the feminine form of charmant, as in the French word for, well, "charming."  Which to me says it's the pronunciation that's off.

 

I don't have an answer for this question, really.  All I know is that there's something weird about the French, be it by mistake or by intent.

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 3:58pm

"But if this is what they were going for, it would be spelled "charmantée" in the libretto, and it's not"

 

You don't know that for sure.

[aimeric]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 4:32pm

It's only reasonable to assume.  What sense does it make otherwise?  If it's a fake word, why not write it that way, instead of writing it as a real word mispronounced?

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/6/16 at 4:42pm

"what sense doe it make otherwise?"

Perhaps, it was autocorrected and not disenautocorrected (like Helene, I can have fun with language).

Updated On: 1/6/16 at 04:42 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 1/8/16 at 8:50am

This is a specific lyric, tho, right?

[tazber]

Posted: 1/8/16 at 9:29am

I don't know French so until this thread I didn't even realize it was being mis-pronounced.

 

Musically, it works really well as three syllables though.

 

 

 

 

[MadAboutTheBoy]

Posted: 1/8/16 at 3:32pm

Thanks everyone who responded. It's been very interesting hearing your ideas.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/8/16 at 5:49pm

 

It's such a shame to marry squirrels in the country.