So... no threads about Israel and Gaza, eh? (2014)

[HorseTears]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 1:04am

Let's talk about the Israel/Gaza conflict! I can't believe there isn't a thread already. Actually, I can. Because like on so many places on the internet it will quickly devolve into a series of emotional and unreasonable one-sided arguments. Criticism of Hamas will be seen by some as unquestioning support for Israel's action in Gaza. Criticism of Israel's methods in their Gaza strike or the proportionality of their attacks will be seen by some as support for Hamas - or worse - anti-Antisemitism. And then everyone will trot out a mile-long list of "facts" about the history of the region that prove their argument and we'll all get splitting headaches and dozens of innocent civilians and soldiers will continue to die every ****ing day.

So, instead, here's this video that says more than an endless swirling tunnel of hateful internet comment sections ever could. (And, yes, it is overly simplistic. And, yes, you're right, it does not offer a reading of the more subtle points of contention in the region since the 1940s, but just watch anyway)...




Oh and, yes, I have seen the hundreds of photos of brutally killed and injured Palestinian children, and the photos of the Hamas tunnels uncovered by Israel and the photos of the funerals for the young Israeli soldiers.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 1:45am

There is a big difference between being anti Zionist and Antisemetic. This is what the Zionists are using.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 1:53am

Look at this group of antisemites!

[FishermanBob]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 2:32am

Every religion has their fringe loonies. Jews are no exception.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 6:57am

I was burned out on the conflict years ago. I am sick of revenge on revenge on revenge. I don't believe in any nation based on ethnicity and or religion, let alone a nation created in the middle of the 20th Century. And yet that nation exists - it can't be expected to beundone. I believe both sides are guilty of war crimes. I am also incensed when Israel is singled out - it would have been the height of hypocrisy for the U.S., which is guilty of war crimes and in recent years responsible for destruction on a scale that makes Gaza pale in comparison, to join a resolution condemning Israel for war crimes - and am appalled by the anti-semitism in Germany and France right now. I am strongly against the occupation and against the blockade.

I am deeply pessimistic. I see no end to the violence and insanity.

And over what? Whether one is Arab or Jewish? Muslim or Jewish? It's idiocy.

If I were king or God, I would decree a one state solution with complete equality and no religious symbols on the flag. But I'm not.

It's a complete and utter disaster. I wish I could go back in time to 1948 and tell everyone what they were creating and stop it. I wish I could go back to 4 years after 1967 and tell everyone what they were creating and put an end to it. I wish I could go back much further in time and put an end to all the oppression which begat the oppression.

And then again, ironically, what you see happening now outside Paris and in Germany fuels Jewish nationalism. How could it not?

OK. That's all I have to say. Thanks.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 8:05am

Yes, by all means let's talk about Israel and Gaza. And let's talk about Hamas and the IDF. And let's talk about Syria and Iraq and Libya and Sudan and ISIS and Egypt and Qatar. And let's talk about Turkey and Iran and Sunni and Shia.

Let's talk about the 725 dead in Gaza and Israel since this conflict began--and let's also talk about the 800 people killed daily in the conflict in Syria.

And then let's acknowledge that disapproving of Israel's policies does not equate hating Jews. And then let's further acknowledge that many of the people who disapprove of Israel's policies would like to see the State of Israel eradicated and the Jews expelled from France, Germany, England and the rest of Europe.

And then let's acknowledge that Israel's use of disproportionate force is is wrong. But not without acknowledging that disproportionate criticism of Israel--criticism of Israel for things its neighboring countries are NOT criticized for--is not simply anti-Zionism, it is old-fashioned Jew Hatred, cloaked in a new term.

And let us ask, "If Zionism is racism, what is Islamism?" "If a Jewish state is apartheid, what is a Muslim state?" "If the Palestinians have a right to return, is there also a right to return for the Jews of Cairo and Alexandria and Baghdad and Tehran?" Is there a quid pro quo on rights of return, or is it just one way?

And then, when we're done talking about all those things, quietly, without shouting or name-calling or blocking each other on Facebook or deciding we hate each other, then...

...then let us sit down and talk about the miracle of peace and how we can make that miracle happen.

Updated On: 7/24/14 at 08:05 AM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 8:19am

^Bravo!

btw, to make matters more complex in their unbalanced relativity, there is now a right of return for the descendants of expelled Jews of Cordoba and Granada - talk about statutes of limitations! - but not for the descendants of expelled Andalusian Muslims.

In this day and age, who is not the descendant of refugees from political oppression and war?* This is not to imply, however, that the right to return for Palestinian refugees is not a particular case that demands attention based on its own peculiar historic circumstances. And I don't know of a lot of Jews who are seeking a right of return to Muslim countries.

But your very articulate point, Joey, is well taken.

*for that matter a great majority of Middle-Easterners regardless of their present demographic identity is no doubt the descendants of many generations of Pagans, Jews, Christians and Muslims. These present divisions are, by definition, artifacts of historical chance. Just like the borders that define their political circumstances.

It's all crap.


Updated On: 7/24/14 at 08:19 AM

[Brian07663NJ]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 8:32am

Again - without choosing a side I have a genuine questions/thoughts...

Who has more money?
Who has more influence?
Who has a bigger international voice?

I am not a historian and do not think that I know enough history to justify providing an educated opinion as to who is right, wrong, deserving etc. Both sides have been wronged. Too many people participated in adding their voices, opinions and enforcement of historical decisions on who has land. Many bridges were burned and both sides cannot find the correct location to meet to rebuild that bridge.

Unfortunately, this is not something that can easily be solved.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 8:38am

Those are important questions. And yet, by those implicit standards - and I don't mean this as a defense of Israel's attacks on Gaza, particularly in its particulars and dubious proportionality - who has more influence, money and international voice that the U.S.? Is there a suggestion that we could never defend ourselves Not only do we defend ourselves, we retaliate indiscriminately and it leads to hundreds of thousands of people killed in prolonged wars that only create further chaos.

My point - and I do have one - is that there is a suspect singling out of Israel as well as very good reasons to condemn much of Israeli policy.
Updated On: 7/24/14 at 08:38 AM

[Addison D.]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 9:00am

I'd like to recommend Benjamin Netanyahu's 'A Durable Peace'. It is a fascinating and well-written presentation of the history of Israel.

Naturally, Netanyahu is not 'un-biased', but his argument is based on extensive, straightforward, documentation of facts.

It is a book that changed my understanding of the situation in the Middle East and my view of Israel and its actions.

Updated On: 7/24/14 at 09:00 AM

[Brian07663NJ]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 9:03am

Does the Middle East (in general) need a present day Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King...?

"who has more influence, money and international voice than the U.S.?"

Unfortunately, the US isn't always seen as reasonable to make such decisions because too many times and too frequently the US is playing World Policeman. Historically, I believe the US has been on the side of Israel so the people of Gaza will not see the US as impartial to participate in helping.

"My point - and I do have one - is that there is a suspect singling out of Israel as well as very good reasons to condemn much of Israeli policy."

Of course there is a ringleader but who is he?

[madbrian]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 9:20am

In the words of John Lennon, "Imagine no religion...".

[HorseTears]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 2:21pm

Well, you all proved me wrong. Nice job on keeping things civilized, folks. I'm the furthest thing from an expert on this decades long crisis, but it seems to me there are three four basic eventual outcomes:

1. A continuation of the status quo with occasional violent uprisings and mini wars for decades and decades.

2. A one-state solution in which Israel the West Bank and Gaza become one unified country. But, let's be honest, Israel and the US would never allow that because Jews would quickly become a minority in this new state. Can't say I blame them for completely rejecting any such notion.

3. A two-state solution wherein Israel ends their illegal settlements, goes back to the 1967 borders and ends the occupation. And, in which Hamas is disarmed and disbanded and the new Palestinian government recognizes the right of Israel to exist.

4. One side completely destroys the other, annexes all of their land and expels the remaining population of the other in a massive refugee crisis that complete destabilizes the entire region and probably leads to decades of regional warfare.


Am I missing something? No wonder we're all so cynical about this.

[~~tiny3~~]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 2:35pm

never again.

[Brian07663NJ]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 2:39pm

Horse...you forgot the Prophecies of Nostradamus as a potential outcome:

"A major nuclear confrontation will occur in the Middle East. The aggressor will have broken a promise not to use nuclear weapons in warfare. Naval fleets kept in the area by other powers will be scattered in ruins from the violence of the blast. Radioactive fallout will have adverse effects on people, animals, and weather; and erupting volcanoes will turn the water of that part of the ocean a muddy red color. Because of this, bodies will appear to float in blood. Because of the blasts and earth changes, rivers will change their course, and political boundary lines based on them will be redrawn. The U.S. will have a Democratic president at the time. He will get involved with the conflict as a way of trying to stimulate the economy from a depression."

[HorseTears]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 2:44pm

Oh, yes, total nuclear annihilation. How could I forget?

[tazber]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 2:51pm

Nostradamus knew about nuclear warfare and the United States even though they didn't exist in his time?

[Addison D.]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 2:52pm

Oy--there was a moment when it seemed like Ronald Reagan's entire cabinet was pushing for Armageddon in the Middle East as a way of hastening the Rapture.

Good times, good times...

Updated On: 7/24/14 at 02:52 PM

[Jane2]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 5:28pm

This is a VERY serious problem and I don't take it lightly. However, the way the animation has the lips quivering when they're singing made me laugh.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 6:31pm

What PalJoey said.

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 8:46pm

One side wants peace.

One side wants the other side--and all worldwide Jews--dead.

Here's the Hamas Charter, detailing as such:
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=56&x_miscitem=20


That is the root of the entire contemporary issue.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 8:47pm

Jews would quickly become a minority in this new state.

That's an old supposition that is no longer true.

The right wing in Israel has been working for a long time on encouraging large numbers of Orthodox Jews from other countries to move to Israel and settle. Like other low-income fundamentalists in other religions, these Orthodox Jews have large families quickly.

And with the increasingly hostile atmosphere in Western Europe, the numbers of Jews leaving France and Germany and England have increased in the past few months exponentially.

So depending on how the issue of the Right of Return is decided, the one-state majority be decided by who could have more babies: fundamentalist Jews or fundamentalist Muslims.

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 9:15pm

On a related note, Joey, Muslims and Hispanics in particular have come to the US and have done the same thing. In contrast, the number of Whites in the US have 1-2 kids. Whites in the US will be a minority ethnicity in the US in about 10 years.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 10:02pm

I have a brother who has become a Lubavitcher Hasid and has been living in Tsefat in northern Israel since '91. His oldest son (my nephew) has just begun serving in the Israeli Defense Force, though he will not be sent into Gaza (he hasn't completed the required training yet). My brother is the poster child for all those extremists on the Religious Right who essentially believes he has a God-given claim to evict all Palestinians from the land of Israel with the intention of one day restoring Israel to its Biblical borders. You should see the arguments we used to have over family dinners.

I lived in Israel for a year back when I was an impressionable 15-year old (1971-72). Despite the flush sense of prosperity Israel was enjoying in the aftermath of the Six Day War, it was still a sobering taste of reality for this idealistic Jewish-American weaned on Abba Eban and Golda Meir. Then seeing the country again in 2007 sliced by the horrible concrete walls partitioning the West Bank was like visiting a pre-1989 East Germany.

All I can say is it has been more than a decade since I have been able to vocally support anything I see Israel doing. Each year of their further persecution of the Palestinians puts that dream of 2 peaceful states living side by side farther and farther into the future. So tragic.

[lovepuppy]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 10:11pm

I loved Sfat when I was there 9 years ago. I just went back to Israel this year and returned 2 weeks ago. Didn't get to Sfat.

"Persecution of the Palestinians?" I believe blame for that goes to the terrorist leadership they elected. They persecute their own people. As a cousin of mine said to me while there (he's from here and moved there because his wife is from there), "my 7th grade teacher said: If you want to be a dictator, keep your people stupid." That is the exact description of what the Palestinian leadership has done to its people, for decades, if not centuries. Same with many other Arab nations.

If Canada started bombing us here in the US, a) we would fight back. B) would you refer to us as "persecuting Canadians" at that point?