So... no threads about Israel and Gaza, eh? (2014)

[Jane2]

I came back because of this BS:

"I love musical theatre so how can I be a Jew hater?"

Simple. You can go to shows and hate Jews at the same time. FAIL

" Some of the greatest scientists have been Jewish."

Yeah. and....? that means you don't hate Jews? oy vey

"My very own grandfather laid his life down in the Second World War, to stop Nazism, a war that America didn't want to get involved despite the persecution of millions of Jews."

What does that have to do with your hating of Jews? Next thing you're going to say is you have Jewish friends.

[lovepuppy]

Not babbling at all, YWIW. Well put. (Even though reasonable people including Jews have stated that stuff all over the place. A wonder that the uninformed and/or prejudiced continue not to digest and admit it.)

[FishermanBob]

Jane, you're trying to apply common sense to comments by someone who has clearly shown that he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Even when he tries to show he doesn't "hate Jews", it rings of anti-Semitism. Making his comment "I love musical theatre so how can I be a Jew hater?" I'm sure he had to consciously force himself to stop short of adding "and we all know Jews control Broadway and the West End, like they do Hollywood and the press and banking and commerce and..." It just speaks to his level of ignorance and prejudice. I'm surprised he didn't say "I love Hamas and Jews created Hamas so how can I be a Jew Hater."

[~~tiny3~~]

Big surprise - the cease fire is not even over yet, and HAMAS is firing rockets into Israel again.. Wake up, world.

[Jane2]

Bob, you're right. I realized later that he/she/it isn't worthy of my time. That waste of band space in its signature is a red flag. Its driveway doesn't reach the curb.

[Liza's Headband]

Hamas is guilty for the continued violence and the PLO is just as guilty for allowing Hamas to hold the negotiations for peace "hostage." Those attacking Israel and/or defending Palestine should try to reevaluate their misguided priorities and sensibilities.

"We are ready for the start of the battle again," the group's armed wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, said in a statement before the reports of rocket fire from Gaza.

"We call upon the delegation of the Palestinian negotiating team that it does not extend the cease-fire without receiving an agreement in principle to the demands of our people, and especially the port," the statement said, referring to Hamas request for a seaport on the Mediterranean.

That demand raises serious security concerns for Israel, Dore Gold, a senior foreign policy adviser to Netanyahu, told CNN on Thursday. Israel says Hamas must disarm as part of any larger deal that might lead to the end of border restrictions and greater economic freedom for Gaza residents.

Hamas, meanwhile, says the longstanding Israeli blockade of Gaza must end before a lasting peace deal can be reached.

"We are ready to start the battle again"? Really? Just another statement showing how little Hamas cares about its own people. They glorify the slaughter of innocent civilians on both sides and are the real maniacs attempting to invoke a genocide of epic proportions.... against their own people. If you attack Israel, you are defending Hamas. If you are defending Hamas, you are condoning anti-semitism.


Source

[PalJoey]

Palestinian-American writer and comedian Dean Obeidallah on the Daily Beast, which initially entitled this terrific essay "Anti-Semites, STFU When Talking Israel." Here's the lead, but read the whole thing:

At a crowded Muslim-American event I attended Sunday in North Jersey, Rep. Keith Ellison (D-MN), the first Muslim elected to Congress, spoke about a range of issues. The audience, many of whom have supported Ellison since he was first elected in 2006, cheered many of his comments, but the biggest applause line came when Ellison said: “There’s absolutely no place for anti-Semitism in discussing Israeli policy.”




DAILY BEAST: Stop the Anti-Semitism When Talking Gaza

[Phantom of London]

If the proof is in the pudding, it is found here!

It just goes to show on subsequent messages, if you dare disagree with Israel which I do, pro Israel posters will force the nasty on here, I have no problem saying I disagree with Israel, which posters take this in their core beliefs that I hate Jews, when I clearly said I don't, if I did hate Jews guess what? I would have no problem saying so on here, if I did.

[PalJoey]

Please read the article in the previous posting.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Well, see the problem I have is that you are attributing Israel's behavior to all Jews and fail to factor in any actions by Hamas when assessing the situation.

To quote you:

"Or after bombing UN designated safe havens (schools), killing innocent people playing football on the beach and the only power station, why don't the Jews just clear off and give the land back that wasn't theirs in the first place, which they took off 700.000 Palestine's that NOW live in dis-placed tented cities."

So, first, where is the request that Hamas stop sending rockets from civilian neighborhoods triggering Israeli (note NOT JEWISH) responses? And, how far back do we get to go to determine who is the rightful occupants of that land? The problem was this land had been promised to multiple parties, and simultaneous efforts to establish an independent state in the same territory. And, how far back do we go? Is the last occupant before Israel was established the proper owner, or do generations earlier get that claim? I for one believe everyone individual displaced when Israel was formed deserves financial restitution, but not the right to return. But that's just me.

Why is all of this on Israel (note, residents of Israel are ISRAELIS not Jews - I personally have never been to Israel, and as I already mentioned have serious concerns/misgivings about current policy). There is no commentary on Arab countries perpetuating Antisemitism and using it to distract from other policy failures. No discussion of similar policies of other Arab states that are equal to or worse than Israel in regards to treatment of the Palestinians. No discussion of Hamas's culpability in all of this - just a broad brush blaming the "Jews". Which, of course, is not technically accurate, as mentioned above.

So, at beast, your simplistic broad brush commentary shows you are ignorant. At best, well, it shows a bias. But that is just my opinion.

[Borstalboy]

[PalJoey]

Unfortunately, during World War Two, the United States didn't want the Jews either. FDR turned them away, and there was nowhere for them to go.

But home.

[lovepuppy]

A very interesting read, by a decent (Muslim-American) person, the likes of which pretty much everybody in every corner of the globe and of any opinion, needs to see more of:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/07/stop-the-anti-semitism-when-talking-gaza.html

[PalJoey]

I just posted that--6 posts up--and then 2 posts later asked Phantom to read it.

Sometimes it helps if you read the damn thread before before.

[lovepuppy]

I have read every post on this thread. Sorry for the grievous error. Oh well, now maybe others who are human and make small errors, however inconvenient to you (is it, really, with all the other duties and attentions we presumably have in our lives?), will have a second chance to see it, too.

Thanks. Carry on and have a lovely day.

[Jane2]

PJ, it annoys me to no end when someone posts a repeat of what I had said. I'm with you.

[lovepuppy]

Hm, I appreciate what PJ has been saying, and have openly agreed with his/her sentiments on the conflict in the title of this thread. It seems we all have a personal stake in it.

However, it annoys *me* to no end when people are rude and/or bitchy and/or passive-aggressive (on freaking message boards for goodness' sake) for no good reason, especially to strangers with whom they don't really know they are speaking. There's a war on and I have bigger concerns in my own existence than to instigate mean comments to people on message boards, but you go on wit'cho bad self. You sure told me! (Gawd. I'd delete the unfortunate accidental double post but there doesn't seem to be a way to do it. Oy,such inconvenient first-world problems.) The theatre community, to which I've belonged for over 30 years, is supposed to be a compassionate one; guess not some of you.

But as I said, please carry on and sincerely have a lovely day.

[Jane2]

"However, it annoys *me* to no end when people are rude and/or bitchy and/or passive-aggressive (on freaking message boards for goodness' sake) for no good reason, especially to strangers with whom they don't really know they are speaking. There's a war on and I have bigger concerns in my own existence than to instigate mean comments to people on message boards, but you go on wit'cho bad self. You sure told me! (Gawd. I'd delete the unfortunate accidental double post but there doesn't seem to be a way to do it. Oy,such inconvenient first-world problems.) The theatre community, to which I've belonged for over 30 years, is supposed to be a compassionate one; guess not some of you"

You Talkina Me? Wow, you sure told me, us, them, whomever.
oy. have a good day, pitseler! (Yiddish word)

[lovepuppy]

Back on topic. Here is KISS' Gene Simmons (Jewish and Israeli-born) speaking on the subject, rather intelligently, as many already know he is:

http://chicksontheright.com/posts/item/26266-gene-simmons-talks-israel-gaza-and-wins-an-argument-against-kirsten-powers

[PalJoey]

A rabbi gunned down in Miami 2 weeks after his synagogue was vandalized with this:



Miami-Dade police say there is no connection between the events or proof that the murder was a hate crime.

And so it begins, in Miami.





CBS MIAMI: Rabbi Shot While Walking Toward Synagogue

[HorseTears]

PJ - what's with the highly emotional Fox News style saber-rattling you've been doing lately? I think you're doing a disservice here and I hope I don't get called you-know-what for saying it. I unequivocally deplore and condemn antisemitism and the actions of Hamas in Gaza and its stated goal to destroy Israel. I also do not seek to deny that antisemitism still exists and that there have, undoubtedly, been some recent high profile incidents of violence and intimidation targeting Jewish communities in Europe and in the US. I also don't deny that some critics of Israeli policy are motivated by a pervasive and unacceptable antisemitism and that there is sometimes a double-standard placed upon Israel when other, much worse human rights offenders in the region and beyond are, seemingly, given a free pass. And I understand that for some members of the Jewish community, the criticism of Israel sometimes feels like an attack on the entire Jewish population. I get that. I understand that. I don't deny that and I have no desire to attempt to refute or invalidate a single one of those fair points.

I also understand that making unsupported inferences and reporting half-truths to suit your narrative are not helpful to this cause. The Neo Nazi graffiti at a nearby synagogue and on some cars in Miami sickens me. And this poor man's death - whatever the motivation - is a tragedy. Any connection between the two should most definitely be fully investigated. BUT, you neglected to mention this quote from the Anti Defamation League which is cited in the very report you linked to - I suspect - knowing full well that some people won't bother clicking-through and actually reading the full article. This is - again - a quote from the Anti Defamation League, one of the most powerful and influential organizations in the Israel lobby. I hope we're not going to start suggesting that the ADL is now antisemitic.


FROM THE ARTICLE:
The Anti-Defamation League released a statement Saturday afternoon from Hava Holzhauer, the ADL Regional Director which said: “This is a terrible tragedy. While the motivation for this crime is still being investigated, nothing can justify the killing of an innocent man walking to his place of worship to pray on his holy day. We appreciate the professionalism that the Miami-Dade Police Department has shown in securing all the evidence surrounding the crime and assuring that this investigation remains an exceptionally high priority. Let us hope that the culprits are swiftly apprehended and brought to justice. At this time, it appears to be a robbery that went badly. Currently no evidence has been brought to light that it was motivated by anti-Semitism. While our community is on high alert due to recent anti-Semitic incidents that have coincided with hostilities in the Middle East, we must be careful not to assume this was a hate-motivated crime unless or until such information is discovered and released by law enforcement.”


Click-through to read the FULL story, folks

[PalJoey]

I'm sure you and the ADL's careful response are are right. I'm sure it was just hoodlums both times. I'm sure they had never seen a swastika and they had--no, o idea they didn't even know he was a rabbi! And they had no idea what they were writing on the walls of the synagogue. Just some cool letters they saw on some guy's tattoo: H. A. M. A. S


I'm sure the synagogue desecration will turn out to be an isolated prank.

[~~tiny3~~]

You have GOT to be kidding (Horse).

[HorseTears]

PJ, Tiny - please tell me what specifically in my post you object to. As - again - the ADL has said, we don't yet know the motivation for the crime and early reports seem to indicate it was a robbery attempt. Do facts and accuracy not matter any more?

If a man who happened to be gay was killed in an armed robbery attempt is it automatically a hate crime because the man is a member of a minority group? I'm not justifying this heinous crime, I'm asking that we wait for the facts to be uncovered before we make definitive statements.

Also, I never said it was "just hoodlums" who spray painted swastikas on a synagog or wrote "HAMAS" on cars. Those are clearly acts of anti-Antisemitism. My objection, very simply, is to you automatically linking the two crimes when both the police and the ADL have said no link between the two crimes has been discovered yet. That doesn't mean there couldn't be one. It means that we live in a (relatively) civil society in which we wait for evidence before making definitive declarations. Or at least I thought we did.

[~~tiny3~~]

You're being very naïve, Horse. And you know, in these very politically correct times, plenty of Jews think the ADL/and the police dept. is full o **** on THIS particular crime. Read the crime report again. Just because there are "spokespeople" for specific groups (of anyone), doesn't mean they're right (ADL) or represent a majority of said group. I think PJ's response speaks for itself. And police dept's are afraid of their own shadows these days because of REAL, troublesome profiling, but to negate the swastika and the hamas on the car...well come ON now.... let's be real.

[HorseTears]

Tiny - what exactly are you suggesting? That the ADL and the Miami-Dade police are in league together in some grand conspiracy to cover up hate crimes against Jews in the greater Miami area? If so, could you explain to me what their motivation is? Since you've already declared what the motivation of the unidentified suspects is, I assume you can do the same for the ADL and the police.


Read the crime report again.
Can you provide a link to the crime report you're referencing?


Just because there are "spokespeople" for specific groups (of anyone), doesn't mean they're right (ADL) or represent a majority of said group.
What specific FACTS in the ADL's statement do you refute?



Look, I know you're not a journalist and that you're allowed to have an opinion on any news story out there, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Here's the difference between you and me Tiny. I NEVER said this was not a hate crime. I'm simply saying we should, at a minimum, wait until we have some evidence that it was. That is NOT the same thing as naively denying or ignoring anti-Semitism or the very real possibility that it COULD be a hate crime.

Could you, PJ or anyone else who sides with whatever your argument is actually answer my post with some factual information?