So... no threads about Israel and Gaza, eh? (2014)

[henrikegerman]

The other Arab governments hate Hamas so much that they, like Israel, find Israel's tactics defensible. They're putting politics ahead of their feelings about the lives of Palestinians. But this is nothing new. Many Arab countries have historically not valued Palestinian life very much.

[HorseTears]

PJ - appreciate you posting all of these articles on the larger regional conflict. I do wonder what would happen if Israel was successful in completely destroying and routing out Hamas, so that Fatah and the Palestinian Authority gain control over Gaza. Would the Arab states who currently support the Israeli operation (or remain silent on it) then return to supporting the full liberation of the Palestinian people?

I also wonder what the present situation would be like if Ariel Sharon and his more moderate Kadima party was still with us and still in power. Though he has a dubious past as a possible war criminal, in his later years as Prime Minister, Sharon moved decidedly to the left and started to become a true partner to Abbas and the Palestinians. Which, of course, greatly angered the far-right elements in Israel like the Likud Party and Netanyahu who have never believed in a 2-state solution and, probably, never will. Perhaps if Sharon was still with us and still making meaningful progress on the 2-state solution, the people of Gaza would not have been as enthusiastic to vote Hamas into power in 2006.

All supposition. We'll never know. But, man, imagine what the situation would like in a few years if Hamas is gone and the far-right Likud is gone and instead we have moderate governments in both the Palestinian territories and in Israel. Seems unlikely, though. After this offensive, I imagine Likud has secured their power for many years to come. And, perhaps, Hamas has as well.

[PalJoey]

No one knows what will happen, and anyone who pretends to will ultimately be wrong, in one way or another.

I always wonder if there would be peace today if Yitzhak Rabin and Anwar Sadat had not been assassinated. I like to think there would.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Perhaps if Sharon was still with us and still making meaningful progress on the 2-state solution, the people of Gaza would not have been as enthusiastic to vote Hamas into power in 2006.

The 2006 election happened only a few weeks after Sharon's stroke, though. He was replaced by Ehud Olmert, who just before the election said that he could back the creation of a Palestinian state and that Israel should give up parts of the West Bank.

[HorseTears]

Oh, right you are, Jay. I'm misremembering. My timeline's way off. Sorry about that. Still, I can't believe I'm feeling wistful about Ariel Sharon.

[Reginald Tresilian]

"Many Arab countries have historically not valued Palestinian life very much."

One gets the impression that Hamas shares that sentiment.

[henrikegerman]

True. Hamas may be to Palestinian life what the NRA is to American life.

[PalJoey]

If this "Son of Hamas" author can be believed, it is a fascist organization that not only robs the Palestinian people but tortures and kills them.

http://youtu.be/xwIxuODeh3s

[~~tiny3~~]

A few minutes ago, ISLAMIC UNIV., in central Gaza City, just got blown up. A huge bldg. Uh-oh...looks like full out war?

[PalJoey]

I don't see that reported anywhere. Perhaps it was a false rumor.

[~~tiny3~~]

it was on cnn sometime after 10 pm,,,reported by reuters

http://seen.co/event/gaza---aug-2-part-1--2014-1435/highlight/4776

[PalJoey]

Yes, I see now. The Israelis say there was a "weapons manufacturing research center" in the part of the University that was destroyed. Whatever it was, it isn't anymore.

[lovepuppy]

I don't even know what to say to a person who accuses an experienced, informed, informative poster of being a "person who doesn't allow others to have a thoughtful discussion," when the accuser a) asked a question that is searchable themselves, like everyone else here is clearly capable of doing, not to mention a question regarding the grand scope of *underground tunnel destruction in a short amount of time*, suggesting that the person was, in fact, engaging thoughtlessly by posting their original question. And b) then insults the poster who called them out for being thoughtless, by in fact diverting from the discussion for the purpose of lashing out, and making no other on-topic remark of value.

Carry on with our thoughtful discussion. Have a lovely day.

[SNAFU]

What a freaking DO UCHE!

[PalJoey]

The tunnels will all be destroyed by Sunday.

And by breaking the truce, Hamas has destroyed its chances of being taken seriously by anybody ever again.



JERUSALEM POST:IDF to complete destruction of Hamas tunnels by Sunday; Troops begin withdrawal

[Popular]

I don't know about troops withdrawing. My cousin's brother in law is being called to Gaza on Monday.

[lovepuppy]

Let's hope you're correct, PJ. At least not taken seriously by industrialized nations.

Still doesn't account for the angry, bitter, poor populations and those that sympathize with them. Can't believe they voted in this group as sanctioned leadership in the first place.

[Popular]

RIP 2nd Lt. Goldin

[HorseTears]

Hope your cousin's brother-in-law stays safe, Popular!

[SNAFU]

Rest in Peace also the 19 children who are unamed who were killed in the UN School. Neither side is blameless.

[HorseTears]

SNAFU, my heart breaks thinking of all these young children, teenagers and young adults whose lives cut have been short in Gaza. Not to mention the young adults in the IDF who will probably see and do things that will haunt them the rest of their lives. The population in Gaza is strikingly young and they've suffered so much. They are not nameless, though. I posted this before, but it's worth a repost. If you actually want to learn the names of some of the innocent civilians killed in this offensive - everyone from young infants, to university students, to professional soccer players, visit HumanizePalestine.com. They catalog as many of the deaths as can be verified and, when possible, share images, video and remembrances from loved ones, like this little fellow:







Humanize Palestine attempts to restore the humanity that is often stripped away when Palestinians are reduced to calculative deaths, forgettable names, and burned and mutilated bodies, rather than peo

[PalJoey]

Some amount of blame can and should be placed on those in the UN and UNRWA who allowed munitions to be hidden in (at least three) UN schools. While it is possible these weapons were placed in the schools without the knowledge of anyone working for UNRWA at all, when it happens consistently, someone obviously knows what's going on.

And if not someone with UNRWA, then surely it is someone with Hamas.

No?

===

UNRWA Press Release July 17, 2014:

Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. This incident, which is the first of its kind in Gaza, endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA’s vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.

===

Five days later:

July 22, 2014

UNRWA CONDEMNS PLACEMENT OF ROCKETS, FOR A SECOND TIME, IN ONE OF ITS SCHOOLS

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. As soon as the rockets were discovered, UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets. The school is situated between two other UNRWA schools that currently each accommodate 1,500 internally displaced persons....

UNRWA has reinforced and continues to implement its robust procedures to maintain the neutrality of all its premises, including a strict no-weapons policy and regular inspections of its installations, to ensure they are only used for humanitarian purposes.

Palestinian civilians in Gaza rely on UNRWA to provide humanitarian assistance and shelter. At all times, and especially during escalations of violence, the sanctity and integrity of UN installations must be respected.

===

And, then on July 30th, bombs were found in a third school.

In other words, schools, hospitals and UN facilities have been weaponized. Who put those bombs there?

[Popular]

Since we're sharing stories of the killed...
A high price to pay for helping children

[HorseTears]

PJ - absolutely. The apparent ease with which Hamas has hidden munitions in UN facilities needs to be investigated when this bloody conflict has ended. My point in posting the HumanizePalestine link is not to make a political argument, though. Rather, just to remember that when we hear figures like "19 killed", each of those 19 has a family, hopes, aspirations, a story. Kinda syrupy, I know, but I think it's worth remembering. Unless the Palestian civilian killed is a prominent figure, we rarely hear anything more than a number in the mainstream narrative.

Popular - your link isn't working. Can you repost? Or perhaps it's a private story on Facebook?

[Popular]

Oops sorry. I'm posting from my cell. I'll have to wait to get to a computer to repost.

[Popular]

I'm cutting and pasting from someone's facebook page (I haven't figured out how to post the picture they are referring to):

If you are not from Israel, you probably never saw this guy's picture before.
His name is Matan Gotlib and he is one of the Israeli soldiers who got killed this week.
Matan was on a mission in Gaza, during which he was approached by Palestinian kids who were asking him for help and led him to a U.N. run clinic. It turned out that the place was booby trapped and when Matan entered the building, the whole place exploded killing him and two of his fellow soldiers – Omer Hay and Guy Algranati. Helping these kids turned out to be a the biggest mistake Matan ever did. It is not surprising though that he made that decision. These are the values he grew up on – to reach out to a helpless person in need. He didn't just grow up on these values, he also acted upon them in the most dangerous of times and in the most dangerous of places.
I don't know what ended up happening to those Palestinian kids in this story, whether they ran away or got killed in the explosion as well. But I know one thing for sure - The Hamas doesn't care about them, just like it doesn't care about any of the other Palestinian civilians it forces to act as human shields. It is hard to comprehend how people can have total disregard to their own people's lives, but this is terrorist mentality and this is the Hamas mentality. They started this war to get as many Israeli and as many Palestinians dead as possible. This is their goal and they will stop at nothing to achieve it.

When you think about Israeli mentality and values, remember Matan, Omer and Guy.
May they rest in peace.