Miss Saigon and racism- Page 7

[lovebwy]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 1:13am

"1) Why on earth would anyone subscribe to Time?"

A few months ago, I found that subscribing to Time for 2.99 per month gave me access to all of Time's archives from the beginning of Time to now.

This was so cool. I read the original reviews of Gypsy and Who's Afraid among others. But I found that article to be shockingly insulting to the gays, so I cut it off.

Updated On: 7/23/14 at 01:13 AM

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 1:16am

"she does no favours by opening it up with a comment about white gay men all wanting to get raped by black men or something…"

Eric, this is the entire first paragraph. There is nothing about rape here.

"I need some of you to cut it the hell out. Maybe, for some of you, it’s a presumed mutual appreciation for Beyoncé and weaves that has you thinking that I’m going to be amused by you approaching me in your best “Shanequa from around the way” voice. I don’t know. What I do know is that I don’t care how well you can quote Madea, who told you that your booty was getting bigger than hers, how cute you think it is to call yourself a strong black woman, who taught you to twerk, how funny you think it is to call yourself Quita or Keisha or for which black male you’ve been bottoming — you are not a black woman, and you do not get to claim either blackness or womanhood. It is not yours. It is not for you."

[haterobics]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 1:28am

She lost me when she thought gay white guys watch Madea movies. If you can't get the basics right, the nuance must be way off.

[A Director]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 2:00am

>Yeah that Time column thing was infuriating and insulting. But not nearly as upsetting as what Colleen Dewhurst did to Jonathan Pryce.

lovebwy - Give it a rest. Jonathan Pryce played the role on Broadway and won a Tony.

[A Director]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 2:05am

>Not per se. But I do enjoy and admire watching a strong woman take care of business, as it were. Be it Helen Lawson or Pearl Bailey- it's fun and I find myself using the vernacular of those kinds of gals. And it isn't making fun of them, it's celebrating their wonderfulness!

lovebwy - How old fashion of you. Do you also admire watching a strong man take of business? By the way, Colleen Dewhurst was a strong woman who took care of business.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 4:04am

"Eric, this is the entire first paragraph. There is nothing about rape here. "

Shrug. I exaggerated. So did she, and I only read her article once so got details wrong. Instead she seems to say that white gay guys feel they can appropriate black female "culture" (ie Beyonce) because they've been bottoming for some black man whose name she doesn't want to know. I appreciate you copy/pasting that first paragraph so I got that *ahem* straight.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 8:42am

A different, hardly unrelated issue: I have a Japanese friend who was put off by the casting of Salonga, not Pryce. She felt very strongly that casting any old generic "Asian" as a Vietnamese woman was part of the (racist) Western mindset that all Asian peoples are somehow interchangeable. She said Salonga was of course lovely, but as a Filipino bore no discernible resemblance to a Vietnamese woman, physically or even temperamentally (the latter distinction fascinated me). She was appalled that the show felt it could cast anyone of any nationality as the Vietnamese characters. And often forgotten: AEA took a stand against Salonga coming over, too, saying an American-born Vietnamese actor should've been found. Salonga and Pryce both won Tonys, but their participation still rankles many, and probably always will. Of course, as a white man I have no business telling anyone who's appropriate or not. But I believe in the absolute freedom of artists, period. Stand with Dick Cavett. When unions dictate casting policy, we're in trouble. Art isn't PC, and being "right" about one decisions (Pryce) could mean being wrong about another (James Earl Jones as Big Daddy). Let the audience decide.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 8:46am

I've been avoiding talking about that blog entry Time picked up, because, really no one can win there. I'd be much more amenable to her completely valid points about white appropriation of black culture if it weren't for the bottoming comments and her complete lack of understanding that for some people, the closet isn't something they can easily slip back into. Indeed, for some people (like those of us who were being called fag before we'd even had inkling of sexual feeling), I don't know if the closet was ever a place they could find safety and secrecy in the first place.

That's not to say she doesn't have her points. ANYONE who walks up to a black woman and calls her Keisha or Laquita or anything other than her name is an asshole, full stop. And while I have no doubt that she's met some awful white gay dudes (girl, trust me, so have I), and even though she does qualify herself at the beginning by saying she's talking to "some of you," it's hard not to feel like she's trading in stereotyping herself in retaliation.

She is correct in stating that white people should recognize their white privilege, but she's doing so in a way that seems to try to erase any real struggles that gay people (white, black, man or woman). I've refrained from saying much about it until now because nothing will get solved by playing the Oppression Olympics, and claiming "Well, you thin you have it bad? What about ________?" But, like I said, no one can win here.

[brldisteach2]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 9:04am

I apologize if this has already been posted, but here is a link to an article from last year when Miss Saigon was performed in Minnesota. It presents two viewpoints: http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/stageandarts/226388891.html

[Auggie27]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 9:23am

"Say a 17-year-old white Minnesota girl was forced into prostitution, then claimed she’d fallen in love in one night with a john who is a soldier from Nigeria, Saudi Arabia or North Korea. Would your average Minnesotan believe this? Or would they label it for what it is — the sexual and economic exploitation of a minor?"

This is specious reasoning, reaching for a parallel that simply doesn't exist. The exploitation of young Vietnamese women portrayed in MISS SAIGON may well offend, and I appreciate the rancor it inspires. But it's historically accurate, the creative team aiming to create an era-specific portrait of a horrendous American indifference to the lives of those in another culture. One can be deeply offended by the ramifications without trying to draw hyperbolic what-ifs. Isn't a stronger case to be made for telling other stories, contemporary, historic, rather than to spend time denouncing a piece of popular entertainment? But if the offense is as strong as is stated, and I recognize why, then stand outside the theater. Protest to the ticket holders. Make a case against going. But art happens. Artists get to tell the stories they want to tell. Trying to make a theater not produce a play is fine; but don't expect that enforced censorship will win points.

[lovebwy]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 10:53am

An artist should be allowed to cast whomever they want in their production. Period.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 4:03pm

The issue isn't that it didn't happen, it's that we keep producing media about it, over and over and over (I mean, let's face it, the full depth of the average American's knowledge about Vietnam amounts to "me love you long time"). And sure, an artist should cast whomever they want, and an artist should be allowed to tell whatever story they choose, but that doesn't make them impervious to public criticism. We can't just ignore problematic aspects in shows we like and act like everything's okay, because that's totally backwards.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 4:22pm

^

A++++++ WOULD READ AGAIN

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 4:28pm

We (meaning me) love when Auggie weighs in. With grown-up talk.

[JRybka]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 4:35pm

Auggie... I have to totally disagree with your Japanese friend about the whole Lea Salonga issue.
If that is case then we should never cast anyone but Puerto Ricans in West Side Story.
Jews in Fiddler on the Roof
and
Gays in La Cage Aux Folles.

[South Florida]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 5:09pm

In our culture it seems Broadway shows are the least racist and have always been ahead of the arc when it comes to social issues.

[Wildcard]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 5:33pm

I wish we didn't have to produce media over and over about the negative things in the past. However, in this day and age when people are unaware that the Titanic was a real ship or believe that Steven Spielberg actually hunted dinosaurs, these reminders must be made. Soon, WW2 and the holocaust will be a century away and the Vietnam war (and the exploitation of Vietnamese men and women) seem like ages ago. Making films about slavery does not necessarily condone it or say African Americans are inferior, it is their story being told. And hopefully, remind people not to repeat them again.

It's probably hard to view Miss Saigon in this light as it is after all, a spectacle and entertainment. But an aspect of entertainment is to inform and educate. Many soldiers who had been at the Vietnam war felt that Miss Saigon told their stories. Perhaps somewhere out there, the Kims and Engineers see their stories being told too.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 7:07pm

Lovebwy says, 'An artist should be allowed to cast whoever they want in their production. Period.' I agree. But Charles Kringas Inc. adds: 'But that doesn't make them impervious to public criticism.' And I agree with that, too. As the N.Y. Daily News reporter who broke this story about the 'Miss Saigon' casting controversy in 1990, I can tell you that the situation was more complicated than it's often depicted. Let's start with the role of the Eurasian Engineer. In the story, he tries to pass himself off as Kim's brother, so it's important that he appears Asian. In London, Jonathan Pryce even wore prosthetics around his eyes (a practice that was discontinued on Broadway).

So herein lies the controversy: If the lead is supposed to look Asian, the Asian-American theater community in NYC asked: Why not cast an Asian actor? Asian guys rarely get the opportunity to play the lead. So Equity took a principled stand in favor of its minority members who are largely underrepresented onstage. Vincent Liff, Mackintosh's casting director, wrote that they had made a worldwide search to find an Asian actor with the proper skills and star quality to play the Engineer, but none could be found. He insisted, 'I can say with the greatest assurance that if there were a [qualified] Asian actor ... we would surely have sniffed him out by now. Or he would have found us.'

Equity wound up allowing Pryce to play the Engineer on Broadway, and only then did a publicist for 'Miss Saigon' admit that the worldwide search was made to find an actress to play Kim, not for an Asian actor to play the Engineer. Despite what Liff had written, the spokesman added, 'It is unfortunate and regrettable if any misunderstanding has arisen.' In reality, Mackintosh had wanted Pryce to play the Engineer all along; he wasn't interested in finding any Asian guy. Again, it's Mackintosh's prerogative to cast whoever he wants, but why denigrate the talents of Asian actors he hadn't even seen?

Lea Salonga was an unknown back then; 'Miss Saigon' made her a Tony-winning star. And the role of the Engineer could've done the same for some unknown Asian leading man. Instead, it became part of the ongoing Catch22. 'Miss Saigon' said it couldn't find any Asian men who were stars; if they don't get to play the leads, how do they become stars?

Since Pryce left the Broadway production, the Engineer's role went to actors with Asian-American heritage. And now nearly a quarter-century later, it has come full-circle. Jon Jon Briones, a Filipino-American actor, is earning raves as the Engineer in the London revival, cheered on by Mackintosh. And last May, Mackintosh finally acknowledged that the biggest mistake of his career was misjudging Pryce's casting and how it would become a big issue in New York: 'I said it was a storm in an Oriental teacup, thinking I was being clever. I was actually being stupid.' He now accepts that those who had argued that the Engineer should be played by an actor of Asian descent had a valid point.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 7:16pm

Thanks for that post, Wayman.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 8:00pm

I disagreed with my Japanese friend (a woman, by the way), too, and we got into a compelling discussion about this tradition, dating to the use of Japanese-Americans as Chinese immigrants in FLOWER DRUM SONG (this helps make the case about a Filipino playing a Vietnamese woman, no? When we recall how appalled we were to see one Asian actor so readily substituted for another?) But my point was: sensibilities vary. Within individual sub-cultures. Unavoidably, we all have subjective points of reference is responding to any work of art or literature. I don't disagree that MISS SAIGON has not been balanced by an Asian artist-created work. We need that. We -- institutional theaters, Broadway producers, directors, etc. -- should find it.

But I'd like to make a case that SAIGON is unique, in that it re-opens a collective wound. The issues may be over-simplified, but the show dramatizes a national disgrace, and even if it offends on one level, it continues to teach. Those of us who went through the Viet Nam era recall how racism was on the nightly news. It's a story that needs to be told about our national shame. If the musical works (too) hard to explicate the exploitation -- to the point of duplicating it for the tired businessman -- it certainly underscores its blistering indictment of our foreign policy blunders by the ending. The tragedy that befalls Kim is blood on our hands. A part of me still feels like standing up and saying "don't forget." I say this fully accepting the stereotype fatigue, admitting that as a white male baby boomer I have no right to even approximate a level of empathy. But as that same boomer, I do know that on another sociopolitical level, SAIGON keeps a terrible chapter of our history alive.

Updated On: 7/23/14 at 08:00 PM

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 8:21pm

I guess me (and people like me) just aren't the intended audience for Miss Saigon. I guess I'm glad people are getting something out of it and I do think a lot of the score is nice sounding. Speaking of intended audiences, I remember when Miss Saigon was touring in the 90s. Members of my family went to go see it because it was about Vietnam and had Asian actors on it. I remember hearing my cousins (many of whom were born in Vietnam) talking about the show after they saw it and they were just making fun of the show's depiction of Vietnam and how Kim was an uninteresting character who was just there to be abused.

[canmark]

Posted: 7/23/14 at 10:42pm

Has anyone mentioned the present day parallel – Honduran mothers giving up their children (often to vile human traffickers) in hopes that they might have a better life in America and Kim giving up her child in hopes that he might have a better life in America?

Not to completely disavow the Orientalism in Cio Cio San/Kim’s suicide, but I think it’s a fact that women throughout history (and in the present day) have made extreme sacrifices for the sake of their children. The submissive Asian woman may be a dated trope, but I think Miss Saigon does want to show Kim’s sacrifice as a heroic (just as a soldier may be seen as heroic for sacrificing his life to save others) – although audiences may interpret it differently depending on their background and life experience.

As an Asian Canadian, I’m always happy to see talented Asians on stage in shows that reflect the Asian experience – but also in shows that have nothing to do with their ethnicity, like Shakespeare, for example. But alas, that it doesn’t happen very often. And I’m also happy to see Asian people in Broadway audiences, although that happens much less than one would hope – although shows like Miss Saigon to tend to bring out larger Asian crowds. Normally, I play “count the Asians” when I go to Broadway theaters (or their equivalent in Toronto) and I can often count Asian theatergoers with the fingers of my two hands in a theatre holding over 1,000. It’s disappointing. Why are producers not courting the Asian American/Canadian audience?

As others have said, Miss Saigon, Flower Drum Song, and the King and I, are both the boon and bane of Asian actors. I’m still not sure in my own mind about the specificity of Asian casting: does Kim needs to be played by an actress of Vietnamese descent, or is Filipino close enough? Can a Chinese American actress play Christmas Eve? Does the King of Siam need to be played by a Thai, even though the most famous portrayal was by a Russian? And personally I had no problem with Jonathan Pryce as the Engineer – although I’m glad subsequent Engineers have been of Asian descent.

Yes, it would be good if Broadway audiences could be treated to a range of shows featuring Asian American actors. But I’m not holding my breath. However, the possibility that a new show like Allegiance may join the King and I and Miss Saigon on Broadway in the upcoming year(s) is an encouraging sign.

[A Director]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 1:22am

>In our culture it seems Broadway shows are the least racist and have always been ahead of the arc when it comes to social issues.

South Florida, I'm not trying to be rude, but how old are you? You need to read American plays from the late 19th century and early 20th century. You will discover your comment isn't true.

[A Director]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 1:48am

In my opinion, the best known shows with Asian characters are The King and I, Flower Drum Song and Miss Saigon. If this is all people know, they have a very limited view of Asians and Asian- Americans. There are plays written by Asian-American plays, but they are not widely known. If you want to get an idea of what has been written, find a copy of "Between Worlds Contemporary Asian-American Plays" edited by Misha Berson. It was published in 1990 by Theatre Communication Group.

As for the idea that it is worth doing Miss Saigon in order to remind people of the shame of the Vietnam War, nonsense. There are better shows. To name only a few, read: The Trail of the Cantonsville Nine by Daniel Berrigan, Viet Rock by Megan Terry, The Basic Training of Pavlo Hummel, Sticks and Bones, Streamers all three by David Rabe, and Tracers conceived by John DiFusco and written by eight soldier who fought in Vietnam. If you want a musical, go with Hair.

The cast of the original production of Miss Saigon was not the only issue at the time. Several critics pointed out some of the song ripped off songs from other musicals.

When the show opened on Broadway, many critics loved the show. For another point of view, find Michael Feingold's review in the Village Voice. The headline, HEAT SEEKING BOMB.

[skylight2]

Posted: 7/24/14 at 1:58am

Auggie, I'm curious to find out what your friend thinks of Ken Watanabe starring in King & I.