Black box space on Broadway

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 11:14am

I would like to suggest to the Shubert Organization, Jujamcyn Theaters, Disney and now the Ambassador Theatre Group to consider finding real estate on, or near Broadway (midtown) that can be converted into black box theater space. I know that the Roseland Ballroom is about to be torn down (too bad), but some large new or renovated building that can be used to regularly house alternative Broadway productions.

I remember Dude and Candide and although neither were financial successes, they were both wonderful fun and offered the promise of a Broadway more experimental than the current offering of theaters allows for.

Would it be wonderful if Broadway could regularly include an offering like HERE LIES LOVE, or even Natasha and Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812 (without the expense of building and heating a tent)? What if Sleep No More was a Broadway event?

I honor Daryl Roth for renovating the Daryl Roth Theatre into a black box and of course The Public for their flexible spaces. Off Broadway can and should still be a place for experimental productions, but those that can cross the commercial divide should have a potentially bigger home on The Great White Way.

So, I know we don't get new Broadway houses very often, but to those theater owner organizations - and any possible new ones - why not consider creating space(s) that are designed to affordably accommodate unique seating / viewing configurations.

Just a thought. Comments?

Updated On: 12/18/13 at 11:14 AM

[Phantom of London]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 11:25am

But then that is the distinction off Broadway has such a great reputation because it is bold and experimental. Why does a off Broadway space need to be upscaled to a Broadway house, what would be the advantage?

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 11:28am

Broadway and Off-Broadway are not places.

They are designations based on a theater's number of seats.

What's a 500-seat black box? The Helen Hayes with smaller performance dimensions, no fly space, and flexible seating?

And what does "experimental" theater have to do with black boxes?

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 11:56am

Both comments good ones... I am not suggesting that Broadway encroach on Off-Broadway. I am only suggesting that larger (500+) commercial productions that wish to offer alternative seating have a home within the Broadway offering.

I mentioned Dude and Candide because these shows wanted to fall under the category (contract and perhaps more importantly, brand) of a Broadway production, while offering a very different theater experience than what the traditional proscenium could offer. Great expense went into renovating The Broadway Theatre to accommodate these productions. More recently, Natasha - although not a "Broadway" production - wanted to capture some of the Broadway audience by opening their tent in a parking lot in the theatre district.

I understand that Broadway is a contractual distinction. And, I understand that experimental doesn't necessarily mean Off Broadway, or the seating configuration.

I was only trying to suggest that having one or more spaces that more easily accommodated unique seating configurations in the theatre district would be a great addition to the line up of Broadway theaters. The "Natashas" would have more readily a home on Broadway and they would be legally allowed to advertise as Broadway productions, a brand that holds a lot of weight with the audiences that keep Broadway viable. And, although the expense of building these productions would still be quite formidable, it would eliminate the costs of renovating - removing and replacing seating - of an existing house.

Updated On: 12/18/13 at 11:56 AM

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:00pm

I'm trying to figure out what you're suggesting. Another venue like Circle in the Square? Where would it go?

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:08pm

actually... a larger Daryl Roth Theatre. A space that is intrinsically flexible - each production loads in their own seating / viewing configuration.

Where? That's a great question. I mentioned the Roseland Ballroom, because that space might have been ideal, but alas, it is not available. However, New York is constantly redefining its spaces. If I'm not mistaken, there is a huge new construction project west of 8 Avenue. I gather they're building a huge food court of upscale eateries. Where did that space come from?

I am not a developer and I didn't write this with a proposal in mind. It is just my hope that Broadway can perhaps expand by adding black box space(s).

As was mentioned, Broadway is a contractual distinction. I do believe being near the theatre district is important for the brand, but it could be a space that perhaps moves a little further west or east in the relative mid-town area. The Vivian Beaumont is a Broadway house and it sits quite a bit north of the other theaters. Even south has potential. The Netherlander sits south of 42 Street and Newsies isn't suffering because of it. How about a new development complex that includes retail, office, housing and even theater space somewhere in the 30s or low 40's? Just a thought.

Updated On: 12/18/13 at 12:08 PM

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:29pm

"The Netherlander"?

Scott, for someone lacking a lot of information, you sure like to hear yourself talk.

[Wee Thomas2]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:38pm

I'm confused. I don't know if we're talking about Broadway the street or Broadway the legal term or what.

If the point is we need more flexible spaces on or near the street called Broadway, what's wrong with The Duke? Or do we need more of those? Or bigger or smaller or what?

[Phantom of London]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:39pm

There is a great space for a black box theatre, I think it is on either 44/45 street, there is a Christmas market there now.

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:40pm

spelling error... Nederlander, sorry...

themysteriousgrowl How rude for a spelling error... Besides my spelling error, what in my posts would have you type, "lacking of information"? I may be long winded, but there is no knowledge lacking in my posts. They are just my opinion.

Perhaps, I should have added, Nederlander in my listing of the major Broadway venue holders.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:42pm

"There is a great space for a black box theatre, I think it is on either 44/45 street, there is a Christmas market there now."

Are you talking about Bryant Park? Call me crazy, but I don't think that's a "great space for a black box theatre."

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:45pm

It seems I am ill informed. Just looked up the Duke, which I have never been in and wasn't aware of. Thank you Wee Thomas2.

Yes, spaces like the Duke.

[Wee Thomas2]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:49pm

Bryant Park is 40th to 42nd.

There are lots of Christmas markets out there. I think the one Phantom is referring to is near 8th Avenue (but I haven't been in NYC since before Thanksgiving, so haven't seen any of this years' markets)

[LegallyBroadway2]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:50pm

themysteriousgrowl, they're not talking about Bryant Park.

The lot between 45th and 46th on 8th.

Where that market is set up.

Updated On: 12/18/13 at 12:50 PM

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:54pm

Thinking about this, I would love something similar to World Stages. Perhaps a large development complex that included many types of spaces - housing, retail, office, educational, entertainment - with a large component allocated to the performing arts.

It would be best if this was in close proximity to the theatre district and the spaces were able to contractually be deemed "Broadway houses".

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:54pm

I know where Bryant Park is.

The NATASHA tent is up at 45th and 8th, if that's where he's talking about, though I'm not aware of a market ever having been in that lot. I could well be wrong, though.

And, Scott, if I wanted to block you, I would block you, but I'm sorry to inform you I'm not in the business of taking instructions via PM. What makes you think I don't like reading your posts? Quite the contrary!

Updated On: 12/18/13 at 12:54 PM

[LegallyBroadway2]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 12:59pm

The show tent is on 45th.

Market tents are on 46th.

They share the wonky lot.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 1:00pm

Oh, I gotcha. I know where you're talking about now. Is that lot big enough to erect a 500-seat theater?

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 1:04pm

Just read The Duke's website... and I was again mistaken. I saw Cock there.

I was thinking larger; a space that could easily accommodate 500+ and be deemed a Broadway venue.

A space that could be configured using a flexible seating plan, or more importantly, the risers could be simply removed or pushed back to create a much larger open space that can be used to build custom seating, or simply no seating similar to HERE LIES LOVE.

In addition, personally, I'd love for it to have an inviting marquee, lobby with box office on street level. What I'm going for here is a space that is both branded and "feels" like Broadway, but offers a more flexible configuration.

Updated On: 12/18/13 at 01:04 PM

[mjohnson2]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 1:09pm

While I disagree that we need a larger Black Box Theatre, I like the idea of broadway caliber shows in a black box. I think Pippin would work really well, as would Cinderella, Cats, Little Shop, The Secret Garden, etc.

[ARTc3]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 1:14pm

mjohnson2 excellent suggestions. However, without affordable space to perform these productions, I suspect they will never be conceived or produced. It is for the very reason you mention, that I think a larger black box would be a great addition to the Broadway venues.

[madlibrarian]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 1:20pm

What a bunch of negativist nit-pickers you have encountered, ARTc3. You have a good idea and the eloquence to express it. Certainly Broadway could use additional and flexible performing spaces--the attempts to find such for NATASHA... and HERE LIES LOVE so indicate. Any art form can ossify without new ideas, and for theater that might include new configurations for production, Circle in the Square-style, perhaps.

Updated On: 12/18/13 at 01:20 PM

[E.Davis]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 1:31pm

It is not being negative, It is being practical. Also theater's in the past have been adapted to accommodate show that are entering the theatre. There is also the idea of what is commercially viable and to be honest most of those "experimental" works are not. Look at Natasha, part of the whole mystique about it is the tent. Things might be lost had it been in an actual theatre. The is the concept of found space, turning places into theaters. No one is trying to be negative they are just being pragmatic.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 1:35pm

There is a lot of unreality attached to this idea. First, the primary landlords have no interest in increasing their holdings. Second, the smaller a Broadway theatre, the less rentable it is. Third, the more unconventional a Broadway theatre, the less rentable it is. Fourth, the cost of building a Broadway theatre eclipses the cost of constructing a tent by a factor of several hundred. Fifth, there are several venues within the Broadway box that could be described as black boxes, but they are not rentable because of the cost that would be charged. Sixth, the economics of operating this sort of venue as a Broadway production would be many times what it would be to proceed as an off-Broadway house. The list, believe it or not, goes on. The bottom line is: ain't gonna happen.

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 12/18/13 at 1:36pm

The Duke is adaptable from what I understand- they have the ability to change the layout. However, due to real estate in midtown Manhattan, your dream Broadway theater with the ability to hold 500+ people just isn't practical.