Former SLEEP NO MORE Unpaid Interns Speak Out- Page 2

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 11:47am

Good! You found it.

Here's a link for a FAQ from the Council of Nonprofits about unpaid internships. They seem rather concerned about legality and workers comp. issues as well.

http://www.councilofnonprofits.org/interns

[newintown]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 11:57am

Nonetheless, the legality is not in question. Morality, on the other hand, is entirely subjective.

And, bringing the topic around specifically to the focus of this board (although it doesn't really need to be said), no one is guaranteed a wage as a theatre artist (much as we would love the contrary to be true...).

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 12:10pm

Actually, the legality is in question and it's being fought over in the courts as the links above show. That's why both for profit and nonprofit organizations like the Council on Nonprofits are scrutinizing the process of using unpaid interns. My guess is that their recent concerns are not motivated by "morality".

[newintown]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 12:16pm

Well, semantics aside, the legality is currently established and not likely to change in the near future.

I think it's overly optimistic to believe that making the unpaid intern universally illegal would automatically result in every intern suddenly being paid a lovely full-time wage, complete with benefits and retirement package; non-profit theatres (as well as for-profit companies) would be sure to either phase them out completely or find a legal semantic game ("volunteer," for instance) to replace them.

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 12:21pm

Yes, the word "volunteer" has been popping up quite a bit recently.

I don't think anyone's talking about making unpaid internships illegal. First of all, that's not exactly how the legal system of this country functions... rules about labor, etc. are largely left up to states and district courts. That's where the battles over legality are largely fought... for better or for worse.

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 3:35pm

"Do you live in the nyc area? Do you know how much rent here is? Do you know how much an entry level job pays? If you do, then do the math and ask yourself if you could afford an unpaid internship even while holding down another entry level job."

Yes, yes, and yes - because I have! An intern might have to live with roommates on Staten Island or in an unfashionable area in Queens (horrors!), and might even have to hold a second paid job (gasp). I did both, and valued the experience tremendously. I am concerned that others who have completed internships and made it into the boat might pretend to suddenly be concerned about the ethics of a system from which they benefitted and, with sudden righteous indignation, pull up the ladder to exclude new interns from climbing in and competing with them in the job market.

Why can't society have fair labor laws for experienced job-holders simultaneously with voluntary, educational internship programs for inexperienced young people? Don't we all benefit from having both? How to balance those aims ethically and legally is a very important question. If people want to have a serious conversation about how to do that appropriately, fantastic.

What I don't get is statements that seem to imply that inexperienced, unskilled interns should be paid like experienced, skilled veterans AND get educational experiences from their employer without benefit to the employer, only burden. And if I understand correctly, the employer should get coffee for them, not the other way around -- and heaven forbid they should break a nail filing! If that's not entitled whining, I don't know what is.

[StickIt]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 4:35pm

There are so many people uneducated about what some unpaid internships actually entail and how seriously they displace actual employees that I can't even begin to argue about it. But to those arguing that unpaid internships don't disproportionately favor the wealthy and those who can afford to work for free...you have to be nuts. Most unpaid internships at serious companies require a 40 hour a week commitment. Almost every internship my friends and I have taken over the years (paid and unpaid) generally want someone from 9-5 or 10-6 or whatever it may be. In entertainment fields, they often include working nights or weekends for events, concerts, openings, galas, etc. Unfortunately, these are usually the biggest companies that people want to work for that offer these "opportunities" so a foot in the door is almost impossible for those without the means. Your options for a second job are severely limited when you're spending 40, or even 30 hours a week working for free. Second jobs in the basic fields like retail usually pay 10$ or less an hour and I'd challenge you to find an apartment within a reasonable commute to Manhattan that you can pay for with a minimum wage part-time job. Then you suggest living in Staten Island, Queens, New Jersey, etc. That's fine. Most people aren't being snobby about their neighborhood which you seem to think is true. But if you're living in New Jersey, that means you're paying anywhere from $5 and up or more every day to take the train into the city both ways. Yet another expense for someone working part-time on minimum wage. Yes, of course it can be done. I've shared a 300 square foot studio with a close friend an hour outside the city so we could get by while trying to get a "foot in the door" but to think that is an accessible option for most people is just crazy.

I'm sorry, but what the unpaid internship machine has turned into in this country is a way for employers to save money by using young people who cannot find jobs in this horrible job market to do the work of full time employees. The federal internship guidelines are clear. If, without the interns, a company would need to hire someone for the work they are doing it is NOT legal. That has overtly been the case more often than not and the recent rash of lawsuits that have disproportionately sided in favor of the intern support that point. Anyone who thinks that the majority of unpaid internships are fair or legal has clearly not had a number of them recently or is just simply ignorant to the guidelines governing them. The problem, of course, with the federal labor laws is that there is little enforcement mechanism. The only action you can take when your internship turns out to be illegal and when you have been used is to sue. Which, yet again, is prohibitively expensive for most people. You can say "well then don't intern", okay, sure. Go take a look at the jobs available right now. Even entry level positions want 1-2 years of industry experience for college grads. The only way to get that for most people is an internship. It's a system that sets college kids up to have even more debt and allows for companies making millions and millions of dollars to exploit them for their time and talent.

I'm off the soap box now but this is a major issue for people of my generation and I know many people who have had very, very bad experiences with companies whose names you'd recognize that make money hand over fist yet can't manage to even scrape together minimum wage for interns. No one is asking, as was so condescendingly suggested above, for interns to be paid a wage equivalent to those who are full-time skilled employees. No one is asking for benefits or salaries. They're asking to be treated the same as entry level or unskilled workers in any other field. You know, there was even a case recently of an intern who was sexually assaulted at his job and he was not able to sue because he wasn't legally considered an employee. You're telling me that isn't wrong? Come on. This system is broken and it needs repair, ASAP.
Updated On: 12/12/13 at 04:35 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 4:42pm

"There are so many people uneducated about what some unpaid internships actually entail and how seriously they displace actual employees that I can't even begin to argue about it."

And yet you go on ad nauseum.

Instead of calling people with different knowledge and experience than you "uneducated," I'd advise using an opening sentence that encourages those who disagree with you to read on, rather than dismiss you as solipsistic and contemptuous.

[StickIt]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 4:45pm

"And yet you go on ad nauseum.

Instead of calling people with different knowledge and experience than you "uneducated," I'd advise using an opening sentence that encourages those who disagree with you to read on, rather than dismiss you as solipsistic and contemptuous."

You can dismiss all of the information in my post with a petty, condescending post. It doesn't make you right and I could care less what some cantankerous ignorant person thinks of me.

"Different knowledge"? There aren't two sets of facts on this issue. There is reality and there is distortion. If you refuse to do the research on the issue and on the job market and on the abuses of power and legal cases currently being fought on this issue, maybe you should find a different thread. People with experience on internships in the current climate are the people whose opinions should be listened to. Just like a doctor knows more about medicine than somebody who watches Grey's Anatomy. Industries and practices change. Experience with internships or apprenticeships in decades past isn't relevant to what is going on in 2013.


Updated On: 12/12/13 at 04:45 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 4:53pm

And there you have the definition of solipsistic - "There aren't two sets of facts on this issue. There is reality and there is distortion."

What you call "reality" is merely your experience; what you don't understand is that those who disagree with you may know things that you don't. A solipsist never gets that.

There are a lot of people posting on this site with lots of life experience and education; not everyone who disagrees with you is "ignorant." You have one point of view that works for you; others have differing points of view.

For me - I've been in the nonprofit world for almost 30 years, and have never seen an intern work a full-time, "entry-level" job - some have exceeded demands and expectations willingly. Those people were always rewarded with a job offer or references and introductions. The interns who have failed were those who felt that they were above the experience, who did not meet the (admittedly low) expectations. None were given projects to manage, all were closely supervised. It was a trade (as noted above): experience for sacrifice.

If you think there are no jobs available, I can suggest you take a look at idealist.com, or submit your resume with a nonprofit employment firm; in New York, there are a lot of available jobs in nonprofits. Of course, they may not be "glamorous" enough for some, they may not pay enough to live alone in a nice apartment. But there are jobs.

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 5:21pm

If you don't want to do an internship, don't. If you think you should get paid for what you know how to do, get a job instead. But please, that doesn't mean internships should go away for others who want and need them. The labor guidelines cited above don't remotely prohibit internships; quite on the contrary, they permit, regulate, and distinguish them from jobs. If someone has anything substantial to contribute on the rules' interpretation, please do.

It's impossible to know whether anyone contributing to this thread thought they were going to make Sleep No More or the institution of internships look bad. However, if that was anyone's intent, I think it's fair to say they haven't had a resounding success. Perhaps an internship at a P.R. firm might help?

Updated On: 12/12/13 at 05:21 PM

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 5:21pm

"For me - I've been in the nonprofit world for almost 30 years, and have never seen an intern work a full-time, "entry-level" job - some have exceeded demands and expectations willingly. Those people were always rewarded with a job offer or references and introductions."

And were they able to do those jobs without private means?

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 5:25pm

"The labor guidelines that cited above don't remotely prohibit internships; quite on the contrary, they permit, regulate, and distinguish them from jobs. If someone has anything substantial to contribute on the rules' interpretation, please do."

As the poster above implied, "You are entitled to your own opinion. But not your own facts".

If you want to pretend that a set of legal precedents isn't already changing the environment when it comes to unpaid internships that's your headache but weren't you the one who used the word "volunteer" for "internship"?

[newintown]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 5:26pm

I can't say I knew anything about their private income. What's the point? As pointed out exhaustively, an internship is an internship, not a job. If you can't afford to do one, no one forces you to. If you can't get a paying job, you probably won't magically get a paying internship.

"If you want to pretend that a set of legal precedents isn't already changing the environment when it comes to unpaid internships that's your headache but weren't you the one who used the word "volunteer" for "internship"?"

I don't believe I've written anything that contradicts the guidelines I posted earlier - federally supported legal guidelines which specifically allow unpaid internships.


Updated On: 12/12/13 at 05:26 PM

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 5:34pm

"I can't say I knew anything about their private income. What's the point? "

You're a nonprofit that exists through the largesse of state and city tax payers and you're asking what the point is of making your organization something other than a private playpen for the children of the wealthy?

Talk about entitlement.

Updated On: 12/12/13 at 05:34 PM

[newintown]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 5:43pm

"You're a nonprofit that exists through the largesse of state and city tax payers and you're asking what the point is of making your organization something other than a private playpen for the children of the wealthy?"

If I had any doubt before, that bizarre statement proves that you don't know what a nonprofit is.

a) Most nonprofits are funded by private donors and foundations; the tiniest fraction, if any, comes from public funds.

b) Most people who work in nonprofits do so at substantially lower salaries than their for profit counterparts; only in the mind of someone certifiably insane is it anything remotely like "a private playpen for the children of the wealthy."

If you want to play with the big boys, teashop, it's best to have the big boys' knowledge available to you.

Updated On: 12/12/13 at 05:43 PM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 5:45pm

"You're a nonprofit that exists through the largesse of state and city tax payers"

There are many not-for-profits that do not rely largely on public support but, rather, private support. Just for the record. You just made a huge leap by making that assumption.

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 5:48pm

Yes, I'm aware that nonprofits rely on grants from corporations and private foundations.

But if they are a 501c3 they are also tax exempt and that exemption comes from the largesse of federal, state and city tax payers.

No?






Updated On: 12/12/13 at 05:48 PM

[Theater'sBestFriend]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 7:07pm

"If you want to pretend that a set of legal precedents isn't already changing the environment when it comes to unpaid internships that's your headache but weren't you the one who used the word 'volunteer' for 'internship'?"

What on Earth are you talking about? No one said there aren't changing legal precedents, or that volunteering and internship are the same thing. I've asked for a substantive discussion of the legal precedents several times now, but got entitled whinging instead.

What childish nonsense. The only thing giving me a headache is trying to decipher it. If future legal arguments in any way resemble those in this thread, I predict a resounding set of legal victories strengthening the institution of internship.

Oh, and the reason no one's talking about them being made illegal is that society as a whole sees their benefit, morality, and feasibility, and very much wants them. It's been nice chattin' with ya. Gotta get back to my job now.


Updated On: 12/12/13 at 07:07 PM

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 7:13pm

"I've asked for a substantive discussion of the legal precedents several times now, but got entitled whinging instead. "

No, you haven't. You've been given posts about the legal background that had links attached as well as posts about the ethical aspects of the fight with links from recent articles and all you've offered is condescension and a very good caricature of what unpaid interns might fight against.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 8:07pm

I have not been following this back and forth but wouldn't it be fair to say that you are more hypersensitive about the ethical dilemma rather than the actual legal implications? We are talking about two completely separate issues here.

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 8:21pm

"I have not been following this back and forth but wouldn't it be fair to say that you are more hypersensitive about the ethical dilemma rather than the actual legal implications? We are talking about two completely separate issues here."

Perhaps... it does bother me when young people who want to get paid for their work are characterized as "entitled".

What's your take on the issue. Do you have an opinion?

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 8:48pm

I do. It's not the same as yours.

As a former employee of Disney Television, I saw them really utilize internships in smart and creative ways; they had the ability to create programs that mirrored apprenticeships and I thought it was fabulous. But that's Disney. Not every company has that capability and many unpaid internships are more representative of the "free labor" description. That being said, I am not a huge fan of overbearing government regulation in the workplace (with the distinct exception of matters related to harassment/discrimination). I believe unpaid internships are and should be legal. As individuals we are all accountable for our choices in this world. If you knowingly commit to a full-time unpaid internship, I have no empathy for you months later when you are complaining. Those who complain should quit the internship or simply pass at the start.

I am now an independent consultant for several television production companies and have a part-time unpaid intern during the summer months. It is always a wonderful experience for them and if unpaid internships were so terrible, I would not be receiving dozens of applications each and every summer. Just my two cents.

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 9:13pm

Thanks for the two cents.

It is astounding that a New York district court judge found that volunteers are not protected from sexual harassment because they are not employees. Individual states have been passing laws to remedy that gap. No law is in the works for New York state as far as I know.

But I find it interesting that you see any any form of government regulation of the workplace as overbearing except for when it applies to sexual harassment. Sexual harassment and exploitation are awful, yes. But isn't the exploitation of young people who work without pay also not awful?

Your summer internships sound benign. But this is really not a issue about individual employers. Some of us can be great employers and some of us can be real jerks. The problem is systemic. As the article that I linked in a post stated, unpaid internships have skyrocketed over the past generation... often replacing jobs that were once filled by paid employees.

The endgame is not "illegal unpaid internships". That's never going to happen. The changing nature of legality when it comes to the workplace almost always occurs in state and district courts and is not instituted through executive decisions. That's what much of this thread has been about, a series of non-governmental legal precedences that are effecting the culture of unpaid internships in nonprofit and for profit organizations that depend on them... and hopefully making them, yes, more ethical.








Updated On: 12/12/13 at 09:13 PM

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 12/12/13 at 9:27pm

I personally have no ethical issue with individuals who make the decision to accept a full-time unpaid internship. Some enjoy it or find much value, regardless of the employer or situation they are in. Why can't we hold individuals to the same standard as employers? They are making the choice to do that internship. They did not have to. No one is holding a gun to their head.