CAROUSEL on Live At Lincoln Center Tonight at 9PM!!- Page 4

[jsg03jd]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 4:25pm

It's a very dark musical. Always has been. Julie and Billy desired and loved each other but they are poster children for dysfunctional train wreck relationships. Having said that, CAROUSEL is my favorite and, in my view, the best work of Rodgers and Hammerstein. I had to give up my ticket for the February 27th performance, which bummed me out big time. Thank God for PBS and LIVE FROM LINCOLN CENTER.

[Kelly2]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 4:32pm

"It's a very dark musical. Always has been. Julie and Billy desired and loved each other but they are poster children for dysfunctional train wreck relationships. Having said that, CAROUSEL is my favorite and, in my view, the best work of Rodgers and Hammerstein."

I completely agree with this. It's a more challenging piece to figure out, especially when you try to decide who's "right" and "wrong" and really dissect the relationships and the story, but it's a beautiful one. And the music has always been my favorite R&H score. The Carousel Waltz makes me tear up every time.

I'm so glad PBS decided to record and broadcast this production, I definitely will be saving it forever.

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 4:43pm

>> "And yet the show was a success even then. A testament to the power of the score, I think."

IMO, the success of the show is (mostly) due to one song, You'll Never Walk Alone. (Don't get me wrong -- I do love the whole score)

BUT... Even if you can't empathize with the characters, their actions, the misogynistic themes and the abuse (some people feel that even Carrie suffers a form of abuse by Mr. Snow's insistence on a large family even though she clearly expresses that she does not want that for herself in "When the Children Are Asleep") -- even if you can't abide all of that, you still leave the theater with that glorious hymn of hope and security ringing in your ears.



Updated On: 4/28/13 at 04:43 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:02pm

Here's the thing that many people seem to miss about this show, aside from the fact that in 1945 there were no "women's lib" or equal rights. Women had only voted in the United States for 25 years. Their place was behind their husbands, in the kitchen, cranking out babies. Helps put it into perspective.

But the thing that most people miss is that R&H were TYRING to get a rise out audiences when Julie tells Carrie the slap felt more like a kiss.

They didn't want that to go over smoothly. They wanted a rise out of their audience. Get them to think. Get them to realize how wrong that was.

R&H had many things to say in their musicals about the human condition, love, fighting for rights, understanding, and respect. They just didn't always come out and say it in BOLD LETTERS in a heavy-handed way.

I think the spousal abuse dialogue in Carousel is as effective as "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught."

And I do believe that people should feel that Billy and Julie's relationship is "not acceptable" and messed up. By telling everyone, eight shows a week, that a "slap feels like a kiss" should resonate and get people angry.

That was the point.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:16pm

How do we know that, best12? "What's the Use of Wonderin'?" isn't that far from "Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man of Mine". I'm not questioning his importance or talent, but Hammerstein was idealistic to the point of sentimentality when it came to the redemptive power of a good woman's love.

I'm rather surprised at the praise of CAROUSEL as a whole show. I agree that the score is exquisite and maybe CAROUSEL's fans are music lovers.

But when it comes to plot, character and action, Julie Jordan (and even Nettie!) are too perfect to exhibit any depth. And Good Time Charlie, er, Billy is deliberately just as shallow.

CAROUSEL doesn't embody our national self-image as OKLAHOMA! does. And I don't see the exploration of women's rights as central to the story in the way racism is to SOUTH PACIFIC.

I'm sure this will be received as heresy, but, frankly, even THE SOUND OF MUSIC has more dramatic action and more complex characters. Both Maria and the Captain actually evaluate their own behavior and change for the better.

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:16pm

By telling everyone, eight shows a week, that a "slap feels like a kiss" should resonate and get people angry.

However, this concert version made me feel anything but angry. The only thing that bothered me is how pathetic both were.

Maybe it was the acting choices and the lack of direction, but I felt like throwing her a copy of He's Just Not That Into You and send the cops his way. It was like an episode of Intervention with a luscious score.

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:26pm

>> "R&H were TYRING to get a rise out audiences when Julie tells Carrie the slap felt more like a kiss."

It's not that I disagree with you. I think you're point about R&H wanting people to think, and your example of "...Carefully Taught" are true, but that line about the slap is pulled directly from Molnár's Liliom. Molnár was extremely protective of his work and R&H were walking on eggs to please him.

Oddly, I can understand Julie describing the slap in speaking about herself, and her own feelings. What I found "offensive" was seeing how that passive acceptance was passed on to her daughter, Louise.

To your point (and you're absolutely right), it DID make me think...

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 05:26 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:31pm

In the same vein, I'm not saying best12bars is wrong. His view of the play just strikes me as more Brecht than Hammerstein, given my understanding of both.

But I could well be wrong. Maybe best12 has read something about Hammerstein that I have not.

***

And the fact is we now are taught that domestic violence in ANY form is unacceptable and almost certain to escalate. CAROUSEL's original audience spanked their kids and may have even given their spouses a slap or two. The musical does not suggest that Billy puts Julie into the hospital, though his contrition suggests the play believes him to have an anger-management problem. Updated On: 4/28/13 at 05:31 PM

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:39pm

>>"What's the Use of Wonderin'?" isn't that far from "Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man of Mine"."

To my mind, the latter speaks to the character of the woman ("I'm just a fool for love! Even if he's shiftless, I love 'em anyway"). The former speaks to the hopelessness of longing for change ("That's all there is to that... nothing can be done about it so it's a waste of time to wonder about different circumstances").

[KathyNYC2]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:44pm

"John Adams: My feeling is that this concert suffered a lot from being under-rehearsed. O'Hara talks a little bit about it in her Intermission interview. They put this whole concert together in just days. A lot of things just aren't cohesive, especially with the acting....I think Julie and Billy are pretty complex characters that require more work than the few days of rehearsal allowed for. You can't just walk into those roles armed with only memorization of lines and music....

.....casting Gunn as Billy is a fine choice vocally, but as a non-actor, didn't really work. Because he isn't a strong enough actor to match O'Hara's skills, her Julie came off seeming more pathetic."

I agree - it was strangely miscast = Gunn has an amazing voice but is pretty much a non-actor in this part - and then also a miscast non-actor. He's supposed to be this manly hunk that the girls can't stay away from and no offense, he's just not. Also there was a real NY feel to both Carrie and Mr. Snow that does not jive with me as New England characters.

But about the lack of rehearsal, I hear you..but anyone here see the recent performance of Ragtime at Lincoln Center? (you had to see it in person - it was not televised). Granted it done with minimal staging and the actors used books, but it was also very under-rehearsed. The difference to me as that every single person in the cast was perfect both as actors and singers in their parts...it was impossible NOT to be involved in what was presented. That was sadly lacking here.

[Kelly2]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:56pm

"But about the lack of rehearsal, I hear you..but anyone here see the recent performance of Ragtime at Lincoln Center? (you had to see it in person - it was not televised). Granted it done with minimal staging and the actors used books, but it was also very under-rehearsed. The difference to me as that every single person in the cast was perfect both as actors and singers in their parts...it was impossible NOT to be involved in what was presented. That was sadly lacking here."

I just want to say that you're absolutely entitled to that opinion but I couldn't disagree more. I had minor issues with certain choices and I certainly thought some performances were more well-rounded and developed than others, but I was completely engrossed from the moment the orchestra played the first notes of the waltz. To me, hearing that score the way it was meant to be played and hearing it sung more beautifully than its ever been sung was more than enough to pull me in, and I had far fewer issues with the casting and acting choices than others seemed to, across the board. Aside from Gunn and O'Hara, I thought Stephanie Blythe acquitted herself wonderfully, and Jason Danieley and Shuler Hensley brought quite a lot to their smaller roles. And I definitely did not get "New York" from Danieley and Mueller at all. I was really impressed with everything from top to bottom, and I want to believe that I would've been fairly choosy as Carousel is one of my favorite musicals and has been since I was a little girl.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to disagree with me and think what they think, but I just wanted to put out there that I had a very different experience watching it both live and on the Broadcast.

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 5:56pm

>> "He's supposed to be this manly hunk that the girls can't stay away from and no offense, he's just not."

I dunno... I think he's "dreamy"... !
Regarding being able to successfully put up a show in a short time, the City Center productions always seem to be well done.

There was no mention of exactly how many days Carousel was in rehearsal, or even if they rehearsed ALL day, EVERY day, so who knows?

My personal feeling about miscasting (or not) is based more on skill sets rather than looks. I'd be perfectly OK with seeing Quasimodo play Billy if he could act and sing the role well...

I have to admit, though, that I was kind of praying for Gunn to rip off his shirt and show off his barihunk skills. >DOH!<

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 05:56 PM

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 6:03pm

>> "I just wanted to put out there that I had a very different experience watching it both live and on the Broadcast."

And that's why I enjoy these kinds of threads where the participants speak civilly, without the name-calling and the "knives". I get to speak respectfully with people whose views differ from mine.

I like it!





Updated On: 4/28/13 at 06:03 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 6:05pm

John Adams, I see your point about "Wonderin'?" adding another level of meaning, but both songs are pretty clear that a woman is helpless once she falls in love with a jerk. And both songs invite us to applaud that woman's loyalty, I think.

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 6:08pm

>> "both songs are pretty clear that a woman is helpless once she falls in love with a jerk."
Yup. I can agree with that, too. I wonder if we should consider Showboat and Carousel as "period pieces" in terms of social thinking (at this point, they sure are "last century"...)?

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 06:08 PM

[A Director]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 6:13pm

Here's a link to the Wikipedia entry for Carousel. It's detailed and interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carousel_(musical)

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 6:32pm

>> "In the same vein, I'm not saying best12bars is wrong. His view of the play just strikes me as more Brecht than Hammerstein, given my understanding of both."

It's really (technically) more Molnár than either Brecht or Hammerstein. Molnár refused the rights to his play to both Pucchini (for an opera) and Weil (as a musical). He wanted his play to be associated only with himself - not another author/composer. It was only after he saw Oklahoma! that he was impressed enough by R&H to allow them the rights to his show. Even then, he kept a close eye on their work as it progressed.

I have to admit that I would LOVE to have heard what Kurt Weil would have done with Liliom. It just seems too perfectly matched for his style of music. But then, we wouldn't have You'll Never Walk Alone (or it would have shown up in a different context/score - maybe not as effectively...).

Poor Molnár... His worst fear pretty much came true. Today, who's ever heard of, or seen a production of Liliom? ...but who doesn't know Carousel?
Updated On: 4/28/13 at 06:32 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 6:59pm

I wonder if we should consider Showboat and Carousel as "period pieces" in terms of social thinking....

I agree and I'm happy every time either is revived. We should no more discard them out of political correctness than we should discard OTHELLO or TAMING OF THE SHREW.

***

When I said CAROUSEL strikes me as more Hammerstein than Brecht, I was talking about dramatic theory. Brecht liked the idea of sending his audience out into the street angry and questioning. Hammerstein was more likely to work in declarative statements: "You're doing fine, Oklahoma/Oklahoma, OK!" or "You've got to be taught/Before it's too late."

But best12bars is very well read and I'm entirely open to the possibility that he has read something about R&H's intent with CAROUSEL that I have missed.

None of the above was to quarrel with the claim that the "slap that feels like a kiss" originated with Molnar. I have full confidence in those of you who know LILIOM better than I. (I read it once, almost 50 years ago.)

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:06pm

>> "Brecht liked the idea of sending his audience out into the street angry and questioning. Hammerstein was more likely to work in declarative statements: 'You're doing fine, Oklahoma/Oklahoma, OK!' or 'You've got to be taught/Before it's too late.' "

Now, see what you've done? You've taught me something. Damn you...


Updated On: 4/28/13 at 07:06 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:15pm

To be clear (as you all know), the curtain doesn't come down on the idea of "it's okay" to be slapped if you love someone. They don't send people into the streets with that message, to let them stew in anger on it.

Carousel is a story of redemption for the "unworthy" (or the damned, if you will).

Billy messes up big-time, and gets a second chance to redeem himself.

That's the "Oklahoma! You're okay!" moment.

Not the "slap that feels like a kiss," which is meant to instigate a whole slew of uneasy and thought-provoking emotions.

[Musical Master]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:17pm

I have DVR'd the concert and I thought the casting Gunn, Mueller, Danieley, Hensley, Cullum and Burton were perfect. O'Hara was an alright Julie but sometimes her soprano voice can be strained at times especially her rendition of "What's The Use of Wonderin" which the keys were lowered. Blythe has a very good singing voice, but I didn't care for the (again) lowering the keys of "You'll Never Walk Alone". Tiler Peck and Robert Fairchild were amazing dancers but I wish that Josh Rhodes would've done the choreography instead of Warren Carlyle. Other than that, it was a well-sung and well-staged concert production.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:24pm

Well said, best12. That makes sense to me. There's no question that Billy is what was soon to be called an "anti-hero" and not a "good guy".

I misunderstood what you originally wrote.

If anything, "You'll never walk alone" is CAROUSEL's "You're doing fine, Oklahoma!" line. Thanks to A Director, who recommended Wiki above, I found this quote from Ethan Mordden:

"If Oklahoma! developed the moral argument for sending American boys overseas, Carousel offered consolation to those wives and mothers whose boys would only return in spirit. The meaning lay not in the tragedy of the present, but in the hope for a future where no one walks alone."

***

Has anyone ever read of a connection between CAROUSEL and Benjamin Britten's PETER GRIMES? One can't be "based on" (or "stolen from") the other because both premiered in the same year and took years to write.

But both works spend most of their time exploring the fisherfolk culture and focus on an outsider who eventually commits suicide. (Only CAROUSEL, like LILIOM, deals with the afterlife.) Both offer loyal, long-suffering love interests.

Britten and his partner, Peter Pears, spent much of the war years in New York City and must have met Rodgers and Hammerstein at some point.


Updated On: 4/28/13 at 07:24 PM

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:30pm

Billy messes up big-time, and gets a second chance to redeem himself.

But he doesn't! That's why this all makes no sense to me.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:36pm

^^^^ Attempted armed robbery. That he is also a screw-up doesn't mitigate his guilt.

Or do you mean his chance at redemption isn't believable to you? Updated On: 4/28/13 at 07:36 PM

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:48pm

His chance at redemption did not work to me at all.

I never thought he actually believed anything he did was wrong, he just found himself dead and nowhere to go.

His mourning and You'll Never Walk Alone didn't work either. She was walking alone to begin with, with that good for nothing.