The religion of peace strikes again.

[bethnor]

javero said: "I remain a fan of Hitchens and an avowed atheist.  But, I'm neither a Hitchens d*ck-worshiper nor dogmatic in my refutation of the beliefs of others.  We have little choice but give others time to evolve from their present truth to the realm of rationale thought.  I don't see the immediate benefits of beating them over the head with the message.  Carry on as you wish though.

 

"

but we're not even doing that.  i "carry on" because by pure accident, i am lucky enough to have escaped the worst of this, and unlike many LGBT, i make enough money to take care of myself.  i've lived a good life on this planet, but it doesn't belong to me or anyone else posting in this thread.  future generations deserve a chance, but the way the abrahamic traditions are carrying on, we are a stone's throw away from something terrible.

[wonderfulwizard11]

The man who purposefully attacked Muslims in the U.K. didn't do so because he was Christian- he did it to attack Muslims because he believed all Muslims were terrorists. And attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread are what fuels something like that. You can talk about how enlightened you are as much as you'd like, but this rhetoric is no different than what comes out of the mouth of Donal Trump. 

As an aside, the people responsible for 73% of terrorist attacks in the United States since 9/11 aren't Muslims, but the far-right and Neo-Nazis. I do genuinely believe that this is an incredibly dangerous time to be a Muslim person in America, and it's this kind of bigotry cloaked in "intellectualism" that's helping to fuel that fire. 73% of US terror attacks since 9/11 carried out but far-right people, mostly aimed at Muslims

[Kad]

qolbinau said: "
And Kad - you make fun but your paragraph perfectly describes the situation. If you are not an atheist of course you are not enlightened or close to the truth, which unfortunately does describe the overwhelming majority of the population. And if you are a 'liberal' that won't acknowledge the absolute atrocities that Islam causes for Muslims mainly and some non-Muslims across the world, how can you really describe yourself as a progressive person or think you actually care about Muslims? 

I just hope that the disagreement here is with my tone or arrogance etc  - no one seems to directly respond here to my post but if you honestly believe there is nothing wrong with religion and this particular belief system in particular I don't know what possible evidence you could need to convince otherwise. I would have thought the human rights violations and terrorist attacks would be enough  "

 

As I've written before, I am an atheist. I take major issue with your tone and arrogance, which at best is just borne of the narrow-viewed superiority of being convinced of ideas that have the safety of remaining theoretical and at worst just swaps out the very things you decry about religion for a secular equivalent.

Who here is arguing- or even would argue- that religious extremism is a positive and acceptable thing?! I take issue with the xenophobic Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn, who do things like vote in blocs to pack school boards for a public school system they don't even use simply to disenfranchise largely Caribbean populations in the district and drive them out.  

However, I don't think religion is the root cause. I think human nature is the root cause and religion is merely the justification. Just as many things are used as justification for human cruelty. Science has been used to justify it. Patriotism has been used to justify it. Profit has been used to justify it. The fact that your ideal world is to see the people of the world think and believe as you do could be used to justify it, too, eventually.

Human history is written in blood and, pessimistic or cynical as it may be, I think accepting that is necessary.

[kdogg36]

wonderfulwizard11 said: "And attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread are what fuels something like that. You can talk about how enlightened you are as much as you'd like, but this rhetoric is no different than what comes out of the mouth of Donal Trump."

Do you think all criticism of Islam is off limits? What about criticism of Catholicism, Mormonism, or Scientology?

I think you'd have to admit that there are some big problems within Islam - especially in countries where it's the majority and/or established religion. Does spirited discussion of these problems become bigotry because Muslims are a sometimes oppressed minority here, whereas the other religions are part of the mainstream?

[mar6411]

Kad - thank you.  Well said.

[kdogg36]

Kad said: "Human history is written in blood and, pessimistic or cynical as it may be, I think accepting that is necessary."

I don't know if I agree with this. Although there have been many fits and starts, the history of the Western world has seen a slow transition from all-encompassing mysticism and irrationality to acceptance of science and reason as a means to improve human existence. Even more clearly, I think, it's also seen a transition from serfdom and slavery to relative freedom and justice, and a sharp decrease in rates of violence. I don't think that's a coincidence, and I don't see why it can't continue.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Nowhere in my post did I say that any criticism of Islam or majority Muslim countries is off limits. But if your response to terrorism committed by Muslims is "well, of course, they're naturally more violent because they're Muslims"- that is bigotry and that is what is causing the uptick in anti-Muslim sentiment in the United States, which in turn helps fuel the argument of groups like ISIS. "All religion is bad" and "all Muslims are violent because of their religion" are not nuanced takes and helps no one, regardless of how enlightened you claim to be. 

[kdogg36]

I'm gathering you weren't really addressing me, though it can be hard to tell, because admittedly I have some sympathy for qolbinau's position on religion. He's certainly a little more committed than I am, though. :)

[Kad]

kdogg36 said: "Kad said: "Human history is written in blood and, pessimistic or cynical as it may be, I think accepting that is necessary."

I don't know if I agree with this. Although there have been many fits and starts, the history of the Western world has seen a slow transition from all-encompassing mysticism and irrationality to acceptance of science and reason as a means to improve human existence. Even more clearly, I think, it's also seen a transition from serfdom and slavery to relative freedom and justice, and a sharp decrease in rates of violence. I don't think that's a coincidence, and I don't see why it can't continue."

Yet the price for our Western rationality and science-borne freedom has often come at the cost of sweatshops overseas, crippling debts, pollution and destruction caused by mining and production of resources, destabilizing meddling in the affairs of foreign lands whose cultures we don't fully understand, and the creation of a powerful oligarchy.

Slavery and serfdom may be abolished in the West, but humanity's destructive impulses aren't exactly checked.
 

[kdogg36]

Well, I don't want to minimize the atrocities that have been committed and continue to be committed. I'm the last one to do that. So it makes me a little uncomfortable to say that, by most measures, humans are better off all across the world than they were in previous centuries. People live longer, fewer are in poverty, and there's less violence than before. It can be hard to see this among all the apparent chaos, but I believe the numbers are there to back it up.

Climate change could potentially destroy any progress that has been made. I'm certainly not a denier, but I do think that there's a good chance that we'll find technological solutions before the effects cause widespread disaster. (Incidentally, there really is a powerful consensus on human-caused climate change, but not one on how catastrophic its effects will be.)

[Jay Lerner-Z]

...by most measures, humans are better off all across the world than they were in previous centuries. People live longer, fewer are in poverty, and there's less violence than before. It can be hard to see this among all the apparent chaos, but I believe the numbers are there to back it up.

 

Is this still true when you consider the ginormous increase in the planet's population? There are many billions more people around today than there were in previous centuries. World population* 1800 = 1 billion, 1900 = 1.6 billion, 2017 = 7 billion...so you might say that there is in fact more suffering now than ever before.  This is what makes me pessimistic about climate change, and so much more. I'm doing my bit for humanity by not reproducing. It's all downhill from here, folks.

Maybe I'm just having an off day.

* Stats per google

[kdogg36]

Admittedly I'm talking about rates rather than absolute numbers. 

[qolbinau]

wonderfulwizard11 said: "Nowhere in my post did I say that any criticism of Islam or majority Muslim countries is off limits. But if your response to terrorism committed by Muslims is "well, of course, they're naturally more violent because they're Muslims"- that is bigotry and that is what is causing the uptick in anti-Muslim sentiment in the United States, which in turn helps fuel the argument of groups like ISIS. "All religion is bad" and "all Muslims are violent because of their religion" are not nuanced takes and helps no one, regardless of how enlightened you claim to be. 

"

I'm sorry but you are blatantly lying and being extremely disingenuous - or simply confused. I'd like you to show ONE POST in this thread that claims "all Muslims are violent because of their religion". No one here has ever claimed that - you are twisting the truth. To claim the Islamic doctrine is violent is very different than claiming all Muslims are violent - the issue here is the ideas here, the belief system - NOT Muslim people. It's the left and right's inability to distinguish between religious ideas and people that helps feed this anti-Muslim sentiment because no one is leading the people to understand that they are very, very different. Criticising Islam is NOT the same thing as criticising Muslims. You are a classic example of what is so wrong in today's political climate - if you criticise Islam you are accused of being bigoted. I actually think it is you who is 'bigoted' - I am responding to actual evidence. 1. The ideas found in their religious text 2. The empirical observations of misogyny, homophobia and violence found in Islamic communities 3. Listening to actual Islamic extremists explain the ideas they are trying to impose onto others and why. This is evidence. And this evidence has been used to shape my opinion - being a bigot is someone more like you who's opinion will never change in the face of evidence. If you want to change my opinion, show me that the Islamic religious text does not have violent ideas in it, that people aren't using these ideas to justify violent attacks - that people aren't using the religious text to justify misogynistic practices and homophobia. I am very open to other ideas, but the evidence just isn't there. 

" I think human nature is the root cause and religion is merely the justification. Just as many things are used as justification for human cruelty. "

At some stage human nature must have been the cause to come up with the ideas in the first place - but we cannot explain away the transmission of these ideas and power of religious ideas to make good people do bad things. The most obvious way we can tell this is because the negative effects associated with religion are non-random. For example, homophobic attitudes are empirically observed to be higher in Islamic communities and Christian communities than Atheist communities. If religion was not the issue and it was just human nature then we shouldn't see any relationship between religious beliefs and misogyny, homophobia or violent acts. Unfortunately, this is not the case. It is non-random - and this means that the religious ideas MUST be infiltrating highly religious communities and causing negative outcomes in ways that are not happening in other communities. #youhavetobecarefullytaught. If it's human nature the implication is that muslims are by nature misogynistic and homophobic people, which is simply not the case and seems a little bit racist. The reason these ideas are so widespread (particularly homphobia) in Islamic communities is because of the spread of the religious ideas. These are good people exposed to bad ideas.

 

[South Florida]

Brevity is a lost art.  qolbinau you've become unreadable.

 

[CarlosAlberto]

SMDH....reading this thread is mind blowing, and the way some of you who have posted have truly contributed to the way this country is heading. It's downright scary...Some of you are so me sanctimonious, self righteous asshats....I truly hope you will choke on the crap you choose to espew...

[qolbinau]

The funny thing is Carlos, you think we are enabling the right-wing anti-Muslims sentiment (assuming that's what you mean by contributed to the way the country is heading) - but it's actually you, and every other left-wing truth denier that is doing this because every time you deny the truth about Islam you push these people who can sense an issue with Islam but perhaps not able to describe or action in a meaningful way (or distinguish between Islam and Muslims) further and further away towards the only political system that is even close to the truth about Islam (even though they are both wrong). I saw a great tweet on this the other day - the left is wrong about Islam, the right is wrong about Muslims.

My intellectual God Sam Harris tried to suggest Hillary Clinton change her tune on this before it was too late, but alas - no one listened. 

Its purpose is to prevent a swing toward Trump by voters who find Clinton’s political correctness on the topic of Islam and jihadism a cause for concern

https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/what-hillary-clinton-should-say-about-islam-and-the-war-on-terror

One only need to look at the facebook comments towards terrorist attacks and you can see a public backlash starting to arise towards Islam - it is only going to get worse if left-wing liberals keep denying the truth. Stop shaking your head and accept the truth for what it is. We have actual evidence that Islam is harmful (pick an outcome: misogyny, homophobia, violence, rejection of apostates and treatment of non-believers). The only way forward is to accept the truth and continue the dialogue of criticism. If you try and shut down the argument, you are going to force right-wingers to vote for Trump, stop human progress and impede human rights.  

If Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders could acknowledge there is a difference between Islam and Muslims and say we need to focus on the criticism of ideas (Islam) not people (Muslims), we would be much better off right now because people could hopefully see that abusing or killing Muslims is going to get us no where. But they don't and won't.

 
If you actually care about Muslims then you should be standing up for the Muslims who are oppressed and dying because of this belief system every day. 
 

[qolbinau]

An Islamic country removing the teaching of Evolution in schools - genius. I have said it time and time again now I don't know why The Republican party don't just embrace and adopt Islam onto their political platform. Islamic beliefs are further right than the Republican party - they should be taking notes. And best of all - they already have the support of the left! What great bipartisan work there. Congratulations. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/23/turkish-schools-to-stop-teaching-evolution-official-says

 

[qolbinau]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/opinion/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-asra-q-nomani-respond-to-readers.html

[A Director]

qolbinau said: "An Islamic country removing the teaching of Evolution in schools - genius. 
 

Duh!  There are states, communities and school districts who have banned the teaching of Evolution in this country.
 

 

"

 

[A Director]

qolbinau said: "https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/opinion/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-asra-q-nomani-respond-to-readers.html

The comments by these two women have settled the issue.  No other opinions are needed.  Time to move on.

qolbinau - You are as dogmatic as many religious leaders.  You probably worship Sam Harris!

 

"

 

[qolbinau]

Great article from an self-described atheist Muslim explaining what is wrong with Islam and how both the left and right have it wrong.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/atheist-muslim-islam-donald-trump-ali-rizvi-quran-religion-pakistan-saudi-arabia-libya-islamophobia-a7832346.html%3Famp

It makes me cringe even for me to say "what is wrong with Islam" given the sensitivity of 2017 politics but no belief system or religion should stand above criticism. Human rights matter. The truth matters. Safety matters. 

[qolbinau]

A Director said: "qolbinau said: "An Islamic country removing the teaching of Evolution in schools - genius. 
 

Duh!  There are states, communities and school districts who have banned the teaching of Evolution in this country.
 

 

"

 

 

"

Is that true? Awful. People should be rioting on the streets. It is literally the intellectual abuse of children. 

 

[South Florida]

It amuses me these statements with their backup.  You can believe anything you want to believe in this world and then back it up with a source.  Qolbinau seems to be an addict.  Stick to what you know professor.

[qolbinau]

What you are describing is religion, deceived left-wingers and illogical right-winers. Not me. I struggle to find any real evidence that many religious 'beliefs' have any truth to them. I struggle to find any real evidence that a large proportion of religious adherents ignore these beliefs (e.g., in the case of homophobia for Christianity and Islam - look at any statistical study), and I struggle to find any real evidence that holding these beliefs do not have negative impacts on many people (e.g., look at any statistical study looking at the impact of discrimination on the mental health of LGBT people).

People - do not swallow the kool aid that religion is a good thing or at worst a harmless thing. It's an awful, awful system and the people suffering are the ones you are meant to care about: gay people, muslims, women. I mean, obviously in reality religion DOES have a number of positive outcomes, benign outcomes and negative outcomes. But I think we should be very, very concerned that fictitious/fanciful belief systems have these negative outcomes than we currently are. 
 

[kdogg36]

qolbinau said: "I struggle to find any real evidence that many religious 'beliefs' have any truth to them."

I wouldn't bother. In my experience, the specific claims of religious people, by their own admission, cannot be explained using evidence and reason.

Wondering whether observable properties of the universe suggest the existence of a creator is an interesting metaphysical discussion. But when people claim to know specific details about that creator, and how the creation happened, and what the creator wants us to do on a daily basis - well, that just seems like a form of dementia to me.

 

[qolbinau]

Authorities just stopped a major islamic terrorist threat to bring down an airliner from Sydney. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Islamic_inspired_bomb_plot_on_Australian_aeroplane

It is scary that there are muslims in Australia who have swallowed the kool aid of these dangerous and false islamic beliefs that somehow killing innocent people is going to help them achieve their religious and personal goals.