DOWNTON ABBEY Season 4 Discussion Thread - SPOILERS WITHIN- Page 3

[Gothampc]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 12:03pm

"He would start things, but nothing came to fruition, especially with him telling Lord Grantham about Branson having the school teacher in the upper level of the house."

This was a complete waste of time. A writer shouldn't drop this in the final episode. It will be forgotten by next season. And I'll bet they will jump the show by several months or a year. So what was the purpose of that other than to fill time.

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 12:05pm

It happened all season in the writing. They touched on a subject, and then it would completely disappear.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 12:42pm

Actually it's been happening throughout the entire series. Mrs. Hughes beats breast cancer in just one week. Mrs. Patmore beats blindness in one week. Mr. Bates has been healed of a serious limp.

Jullian Fellowes has no character consistency.

[NYadgal]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 6:32pm

I think it's more just dealing with topics in a condensed number of episodes.

I agree that some topics are brought up and then dropped, but, having a topic play out over only one or two episodes doesn't surprise me in the 8-episode format.

I do wonder how much we are impacted by the editing of the version aired in the US vs. the original episodes aired in England...?

I loved the glamour of the season's finale. Buckingham Palace! Tiaras! Loved it.
But, I also loved the way even the ordinary - like the picnic scene - was just so elegant. The location, the parasol, the way Harold Levinson (Paul Giamatti) reclined at the picnic - was like a scene out of a Seurat painting. Lovely.

I loved the humor sprinkled throughout the season. All of the characters were able to have some focus in a storyline, and so often there were just wonderful little quips and comments. (Mary's comment "I'll do it - I don't mind lying" about the break-in/letter caper had me laughing out loud). I thought the season was rich with laughter, in the midst of some very sad and serious storylines.

I think my favorite line last night was the Dowager's remark to Tom, when he asked her to dance: "Well then, I accept the challenge. I know I can trust you to steer." Brilliant.

And her relationship with Tom has taken on a heartwarming tone. Much like Mrs. Patmore's with Daisy. Lovely. Daisy's growth and maturity this season made her one of my favorite characters.

And... without having one giant 'cliffhanger', we were left with plenty to ponder:
What did Mr. Bates really go to London for? And, if it was to off the man who raped his wife, did her, perhaps, actually murder his first wife? Mostly, I just hope he and Anna keep walking hand-in-hand into their happy future. I loved them together at the seashore.

Will Miss Baxter and Mr. Mosely find happiness together? Or will Evil Thomas destroy the budding relationship? And is it possible for him to have pushed too far by spying and telling on Tom? (I hope so)...

Will Isobel finally find room for a little romance? (And, if so, what quips and advice will the Dowager provide?)

Will Lady Mary add to her list of suitors, and create a Victorian version of 'The Bachelorette'?
(As I've written before, I remain firmly Team Gillingham!)

Can Edith's plan really work? I do hope so... she needs some joy in her life.
Will the missing Michael return? Yes, please!

Now that Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes have held hands in public, will they put a ring on it?

It was a wonderful season for me... and I look forward to Season 5!

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 7:09pm

Addy, I had no idea we were getting an edited version of Downton Abbey. My local PBS was running a drive at the end of last night's episode, and I was so tempted to get all four seasons with a donation.

Don't get me wrong with my comments, I still adore this show.

I was wondering about Bates as well. Does he commit justifiable murder (in his eyes)?!

They definitely need another Mrs. O'Brien character. Thomas being nasty on his own just doesn't work. I forgot what he did, but isn't Lord Grantham indebted to him for some good deed Thomas did? Then again, Lord Grantham hinted that he preferred Bates as his valet when he returned from the US.

[ArtMan]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 7:13pm

He found his dog, that if I remember correctly, he hid.

[ArtMan]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 7:13pm

Double Post

Updated On: 2/24/14 at 07:13 PM

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 7:17pm

Thanks, that's what I thought, but I also thought there was something more recent. Now I remember, the thing with the nanny who was verbally abusive towards baby Sybil.

[ArtMan]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 7:28pm

But that may have been just between him and Cora. I actually thought last night's episode was kind of boring. And unfortunately, I have to watch it again. I got a little confused during the letter plot. I was confusing the younger dark haired girl with the older.

[Tag]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 7:33pm

Maggie Smith's face in her final shot last night was heartbreaking (after being told her way of life would soon be a thing of the past). A very haunting moment.

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 7:37pm

Yes, that was between Thomas Barrow and Cora, but I thought she also mentioned something to Lord Grantham about this (in terms of holding Thomas in their favor).

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 10:17pm

All in all, I was not happy with the writing of this season. Too many things happened off-camera and then were talked about in passing as resolved.

The biggest shock of the season came early on with the rape. But so many storylines seemed tame or tamed down or just bland. A lot was started with potential and then either fizzled out or was resolved in a tidy way "between episodes" so we would only hear about it over tea.

Not good.

They needed more events and more enduring consequences from the events: money lost or won, someone marrying into the family, someone divorcing, someone dying, etc. It all just seemed like cat-and-mouse soap opera stuff.

I still love the actors and the setting, and the period costumes and hairstyling this season were outstanding. But it all sort of fizzled a bit.

I kept hoping Julian Fellows, who used the real Highclere Castle as his inspiration, would take its own history a little more into consideration. I wanted Lord Grantham to go off to Egypt in 1922 on an expedition and bring back some of King Tut's treasures, which were stored in the basement. They missed a big opportunity to have an Indiana Jones-style adventure, to start with, followed by a mysterious illness in the house, thought to be "the curse of King Tut's tomb." It certainly would have livened things up way beyond "who knows a secret about whom," which seemed to be played and replayed throughout Season 4. Ah, well.

I hope Season 5 is more imaginative and takes more risks with the story and the characters.

Wish list:

1) Lady Edith takes over as editor and runs her late fiancé's publishing business.

2) Thomas Barrow gets a male love interest.

3) Rose takes up with Jack Ross again and gets pregnant. Jack is thrown out of the music scene and society circles, can't get a job, and ends up penniless or homeless (this is based on the true-life character).

4) That "burnt man" with the scarred face who mysteriously disappeared years ago shows up again as heir to Downton Abbey. (Talk about a fizzled plot line!)

5) Lady Edith's fiancé shows up alive and wants to marry her. She tries to get the baby back, but they won't give the child up now.

Updated On: 2/25/14 at 10:17 PM

[romantico]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 10:44pm

I don't think it will happen right a way but I think eventually Mrs.Hughes and Mr.Carson are gonna 'hook up'. They seem to admire each other and they are both likeable characters (unless they decide to go with a very 'Remains of the Day' approach). Not sure what Thomas has on Baxter but I think a love interest would be nice. They need to add some more downstairs help. Now that Alfred is gone we need someone other than Jimmy,who I can not stand.

Updated On: 2/24/14 at 10:44 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 10:55pm

The rumours of Thomas' story next year (I won't spoil) sound damn soapy--and fun. Actually most of the season 5 stuff seems a bit more "action-y" which I'm all for and is needed after season 4 (I mostly agree with Besty's take.)

The scene with Carson and Hughes at the beach was lovely.

[mikem]

Posted: 2/24/14 at 11:45pm

I thought this season was, as Besty said, pretty inert and uninvolving. The first half hour of this episode was pretty dull -- nothing really happened for a long time.

I liked the letter-retrieval plot, but it was like a light-hearted caper movie got dropped into the middle of Downton Abbey.

Supposedly, the first two seasons had more scenes in the UK version than the US version, but for the last two seasons, the US versions are longer.

Updated On: 2/24/14 at 11:45 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 3:19am

PBS edited some of the first season (stuff they felt would not interest or might confuse Americans, frankly...) but the DVDs were intact, and since then and its huge success, they've been complete. I'm nearly certain the US episodes aren't now longer than the UK (at least I've never read that before...)

[HorseTears]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 8:36am

I'm such a sucker for British period dramas and have kept tuning in week after week, but the sloppiness of the writing has gone from occasional in season 1 to consistently present in season 4. I think Julian Fellowes is a talented man and especially love Gosford Park, for which he won a richly deserved Oscar, but by now he'd demonstrated that he simply doesn't have the chops to sustain quality writing over such a long period. But who does? Matt Weiner doesn't write Mad Men by himself, nor did Vince Gilligan write every episode of Breaking Bad, nor David Milch write every episode of Deadwood or David Simon every episode of The Wire. This show constantly attempts to refresh things by introducing new actors, but surely it would benefit even more by including some new writing talent as well. But it seems doubtful that will happen given the massive success the series continues to be. And, yes, I know that I'm essentially ranting about the writing in a well-dressed ITV soap opera.

Overall, I liked the relative lightness of the finale. I was pleasantly surprised to find Shirley Maclaine much better this time around, too. Her prior appearances felt far too contemporary for me. Yes, she's a "loud", progressive American who will always seem more modern than the folks at Downton, but in her prior appearance I felt like I was watching "2013" modern, not "1920s" modern. It was like she got off the plane, went to wardrobe and walked right onto set without any preparation. This time she seemed much more comfortable, so it's a shame that she didn't get more to do. But I do agree that her final scene with Maggie Smith was surprisingly chilling. Although I love all of Maggie Smith's last-word bon mots, I liked the rather bold choice to show her silenced and ashen faced at the end of that scene.

Updated On: 2/25/14 at 08:36 AM

[madbrian]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 8:47am

This year, if anyone from the cast is to be recognized, I'd rather see Phyllis Logan acknowledged. Maggie Smith still delivers her one-liners, but Logan has had a lot to do this season.

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 9:11am

Wow,HorseTear, I felt the exact opposite about Shirley MacLaine's appearance this go round.

[HorseTears]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 9:28am

You mean you felt she fit the role more last time, but felt out of place this time? I dunno, maybe I just got used to the idea of her being there.

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 9:31am

Yes, she really didn't bother me when she was on the first time around. This time though, oh my. That's why I suggested the role be played by someone less well known. She was so out of place (IMO).

[HorseTears]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 9:38am

What can I say, we see it differently. I agree that the role wasn't perfectly cast, but can you blame them for going after her?

Oh, and MadBrian, I agree! Phyllis Logan is absolutely wonderful.

[best12bars]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 10:29am

I don't mean any disrespect to Shirley, and I adore her as an actress, but she seemed a bit out of it on the show. Her words were slurred and her timing was lagging. Neither have ever been problems that I've noticed in the past. I realize Shirley and Dame Maggie are the same age, and everyone ages differently, but I hope her health is okay. Maybe she was just off, although I really had trouble several times with her mumbling. I can handle the thickest British accents on that show, but not slurring.

As for Shirley in the role, I don't have a problem with seeing a movie star in that role. It kind of works in a sort of "Clash of the Titans" way, with her and Maggie locking horns. I did like the dialogue of their final exchange, and the acting from both was good. I felt they gave Shirley a little more to say this time, even if they didn't give her as much to do. I look forward to her "dropping in" next season (hopefully).

I also enjoyed Paul Giamatti as the oh-so-eligible, yet Guy Kibbee-ish, bachelor. His scenes with Poppy Drayton were very nice. I just wish he figured more into the overall plot. Perhaps, if he returns, that will will happen. I hope both he and Shirley are more integrated into the storyline, rather than just popping in "Dr. Bombay" style.

And back to the writing, maybe Fellowes just needs to hire a story editor or two. He seems to have interesting ideas for characters and initial plots, but doesn't seem to know how to resolve them well dramatically. They either die out or disappear entirely, or they are resolved in a way-too-tidy (and boring) way. No ramifications or consequences for many of them. Way too much unfinished business brushed aside.

EDIT: One other nitpicky point ... After they jumped eight months to 1923, and Edith already had the baby ... I didn't like that she was still reacting (and whimpering and sobbing) about her fiancé as if she were suddenly just now getting used to the idea that he might not come back. It seemed to be dawning on her as a new thought, which may have worked if EIGHT MONTHS hadn't passed, her baby born, etc. It just seemed like someone (the director) forgot to remind the actress that a lot of time has passed for her to deal with the idea that he might not return. It's fine for her to get emotional about it, but it shouldn't come across as a brand new thought. It felt very false (and inappropriate) as a reaction.

... also because I thought Mary (Michelle Dockery) handled the passage of time (during the season break) for off-camera grieving very well. When we started the season, she didn't act like Matthew had just died minutes ago. Neither did his mother. I felt that they were still adjusting, of course, but not that it was a "new thought."

Updated On: 2/25/14 at 10:29 AM

[mikem]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 10:41am

In terms of episode length, at the televisionwithoutpity.com message boards, there are several comments about specific scenes and lines that weren't in the UK broadcast version. We'll see what the DVDs are like.

I love Violet's zingers, but she said something really inconsistent this episode. At the flower show in Season 2 (I think), she says something to Isobel about how she's always so zealous, Isobel says that she takes it as a compliment, and Violet says after Isobel passes, "I must have said it wrong." But this time around, Violet says to Isobel something about how it's better to take everything as a compliment.

I loved Carson's series of faces of consternation at the American valet. So funny!

I read someplace that the creators deliberately had this episode be lighter because they feel like they ruined everyone's Christmas last year. (The episode where Matthew was killed was broadcast on Christmas Day in the UK, and this one was as well.)

ETA: best12bars, I agree with you that the lack of progress between episodes that take place months or years apart is problematic. People are still dithering about the same thing after so much time has passed. Mary is the worst about that. She spent months pondering Matthew's original proposal, and she's now openly keeping 2 men vying for her for almost a year?

Updated On: 2/25/14 at 10:41 AM

[Gothampc]

Posted: 2/25/14 at 11:53am

I'm sure it's difficult to write the show because there are so many characters. As happened in Upstairs/Downstairs, I think the show focuses more on the upstairs people. We see a new generation being born and people dying upstairs. Downstairs they just clunk along like one dimensional characters.

I think it was a bit ridiculous that the entire staff picked up and went to London. It goes a bit beyond belief that they would need both Mrs. Hughes and Carson. And Daisy? And the other kitchen maid? They couldn't just hire some London help in the kitchen?

I think Daisy's American boyfriend was a poor plotline. He shows up and immediately falls for Daisy in 2 seconds and wants to start a life with her? That must be one desperate footman.

Another problem with the writing is Maggie Smith's character. You have one of Britain's best actresses and you aren't giving her anything to do. All she does is sit and comment on what everyone else is doing. I hope next season, he really gives Maggie Smith some action.

As others have said, the costumes and scenery are beautiful but the writing and the plotting really lag.