Best homely characters?

[Jarethan]

adam.peterson44 said: "I guess i had Minnie Driver in my mind when i mentioned Carlotta.  She is definitely not fat but is kind of homely.  But maybe others have been cast in a more fat-and-pretty manner.  One definitely gets the impression that the phantom is trying to push Carlotta out to make room for Christine due to his infatuation with the latter, since Carlotta is always, as far as i can remember, played by either someone with a great singing voice or (in the movie) dubbed by someone with a great singing voice.  So the phantom is not pushing her out to make room for Christine due to Christine's singing, but due to his being in love with Christine.

 

I know any opinions on looks are personal; that said, I am not going to let a dismissal of Minnie Driver as being homely go unchallenged.  Minnie Driver has played homely -- so has Jessica Chasten, to low acclaim -- that is not the same as being homely.  fIMO she can be extremely attractive.  It sorta depends on the role, the intention, the clothes, the make-up and the raw material.

In the Phantom movie, she was borderline -- admittedly a little unconventionally -- gorgeous...they focused on DIVA in bold face capitals to define her character, not homely, ugly, no body fat, etc.  Great make-up, wig,  emphasis on cleavage and tiny waist; again, the raw material was there all the time.

 

[poisonivy2]

To the poster who was asking about why I came up with this thread I was actually just thinking about Ben Platt and wondering whether his performances as Elder Cunningham and Evan Hansen would have had the same impact had he not been homely. 

[adam.peterson44]

Jarethan, I certainly did not "dismiss" (as you put it) Minnie Driver in referring to her character in the phantom movie as homely.  I don't actually judge people's value by their appearance, and describing someone's appearance as conventionally attractive or not to me is not a dismissal/approval but rather no different from saying that someone is 5'10" high or has brown hair - there is no value or judgment attached to such a description in my opinion.  My point was simply that i think the story of Phantom of the Opera generally implies (to me, anyway) that the phantom finds Christine more attractive than Carlotta, because Carlotta's singing has always been either as good as or better than Christine's in any production that i have seen, so the appearance thing seems to be what motivates him, and hence i think the character has to be cast as being considered somewhat less conventionally-attractive than Christine in order for the story to work.  One couldn't really cast it so that both characters are equally physically attractive with Christine being a better singer because of all the specific fuss made in the story script and lyrics about how great a singer Carlotta is.  In no way do i dismiss actors who play such characters or people who are not conventionally attractive in real life as having any less value than people widely considered to be attractive.

[Jarethan]

poisonivy2 said: "To the poster who was asking about why I came up with this thread I was actually just thinking about Ben Platt and wondering whether his performances as Elder Cunningham and Evan Hansen would have had the same impact had he not been homely. 

I think Elder Cunningham will always work better if the performer is easily dismissible as a loser.  Unfortunately, that comes down to some combination of: some degree of homely, some degree of fat, some degree of short, and perhaps still looking a little too much like a boy.  Fat and short with a handsome face (perhaps de-emphasized with a stupid haircut) would work, so he doesn't have to be homely per se.  But, Platt certainly qualifies as (very?) homely, too boyish, and on the short side.  (Re fat, I don't remember thinking of him as overweight when I saw Evan Hansen; of course, doing that role 8 times a week would probably cause anyone to lose weight).  In Mormon, if he wasn't a little chubby (I did not see him in it), they could have padded him slightly.

Re Evan Hansen, I don't think Evan needs to be unattractive.  I would cite fairly similar characters that I can easily recall.  In the movie The Perks of Being a Wallflower, the most prominent physical feature I'd associate with Logan Lerman is that he is boyishly handsome, albeit short (and is he still going to be boyishly handsome in 20 years?).  In Ordinary People, I would say that Timothy Hutton was boyishly cute, a very typical looking teenager. Bottom line: Neither was overweight or homely; just boyish looking.

IMO Ben Platt is pretty definitely boyishly homely, but I do not think future casting needs the character to be that way.  He has to be a good actor with an excellent singing voice and enormous stamina...who can play damaged convincingly.

[Jarethan]

adam.peterson44 said: "Jarethan, I certainly did not "dismiss" (as you put it) Minnie Driver in referring to her character in the phantom movie as homely.  I don't actually judge people's value by their appearance, and describing someone's appearance as conventionally attractive or not to me is not a dismissal/approval but rather no different from saying that someone is 5'10" high or has brown hair - there is no value or judgment attached to such a description in my opinion.  My point was simply that i think the story of Phantom of the Opera generally implies (to me, anyway) that the phantom finds Christine more attractive than Carlotta, because Carlotta's singing has always been either as good as or better than Christine's in any production that i have seen, so the appearance thing seems to be what motivates him, and hence i think the character has to be cast as being considered somewhat less conventionally-attractive than Christine in order for the story to work.  One couldn't really cast it so that both characters are equally physically attractive with Christine being a better singer because of all the specific fuss made in the story script and lyrics about how great a singer Carlotta is.  In no way do i dismiss actors who play such characters or people who are not conventionally attractive in real life as having any less value than people widely considered to be attractive.

 

I think your points are valid.  I also think the Phantom could easily hate Carlotta for several reasons that have nothing to do with looks:

-- Audiences may like prima donnas.  That doesn't mean he has to.  Given his passion, he would be as interested in the performance as the singing.  There are all kinds of stories about past opera singers who were atrocious actors, but with gorgeous voices; and they were stars because of the voice.  This could easily have been the case with Carlotta.  He was thinking about the future of opera and not the past.

-- She is an old-time, world class DIVA; and, as a DIVA, she ultimately cares about no-one but herself.  The Phantom has been abused by people his whole life.  Overseeing the comings and goings-ons back stage all day every day, wouldn't he naturally hate someone like Carlotta, who figuratively spits on people all the time?

-- Christine is still pure and innocent.

 

[adam.peterson44]

Jarethan, you may be right - perhaps Phantom resents Carlotta for being a Diva.  But i don't think she is necessarily introduced as one at first - she sings the aria that the new managers request her to sing for them personally, she is worried and scared when the scenery falls near her and nearly hits her, and her outburst about the managers letting things like that happen seems like a non-diva concerned about being injured could have made it out of frustration, just as easily as a diva might make it out of entitlement.  Because really, everyone is actually entitled not to be injured at work and the phantom keeps trying to injure her (it is not really specified why explicitly).  Then later, having someone constantly trying to replace you while insulting and threatening you (the phantom's various notes) probably also brings out jealousy/diva-ness that might not have already been there.  But it may have already been there, too - the story doesn't necessarily go back far enough for us to decide whether she was already like that, or whether that was a reaction to the phantom persecuting her, so i think your interpretation is certainly one valid possibility that is consistent with everything shown on stage, as is the Christine-infatuation hypothesis.  Perhaps there are others as well.

[Jarethan]

adam.peterson44 said: "Jarethan, you may be right - perhaps Phantom resents Carlotta for being a Diva.  But i don't think she is necessarily introduced as one at first - she sings the aria that the new managers request her to sing for them personally, she is worried and scared when the scenery falls near her and nearly hits her, and her outburst about the managers letting things like that happen seems like a non-diva concerned about being injured could have made it out of frustration, just as easily as a diva might make it out of entitlement.  Because really, everyone is actually entitled not to be injured at work and the phantom keeps trying to injure her (it is not really specified why explicitly).  Then later, having someone constantly trying to replace you while insulting and threatening you (the phantom's various notes) probably also brings out jealousy/diva-ness that might not have already been there.  But it may have already been there, too - the story doesn't necessarily go back far enough for us to decide whether she was already like that, or whether that was a reaction to the phantom persecuting her, so i think your interpretation is certainly one valid possibility that is consistent with everything shown on stage, as is the Christine-infatuation hypothesis.  Perhaps there are others as well.

I have always assumed the DIVA behavior (as a performer and as a person) was the reason for the animosity, but there are clearly other options.  

[PThespian]

Carrie White

Fanny Brice ("If A Girl Isn't Pretty"

[poisonivy2]

Ben Platt definitely lost weight playing Evan Hansen. It would make sense as Evan has such anxiety issues that he can't even order dinner on the days his mom is at work.

This is when he was Cunningham:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnvPQwOsZ68&t=173s

As for Mama Rose I think the character works better if she's slightly homely, or at least way less attractive than her daughters. Ethel Merman had an amazing voice but was somewhat plain/homely in appearance. 

[bowtie7]

Both Maggie Hobson and Will Mossop in Hobson's Choice 

[Sally Durant Plummer]

It could certainly be argued that Sally Durant in Follies is homely. She refers to having a tummy and her hair being to bleached. Her first solo speaks primarily about how she and her life have changed in 30 years - revealing that she doesn't really feel "beautiful" or like a "princess" - even in Buddy's eyes. Of course, Bernadette Peters, Victoria Clark, or Dorothy Collins couldn't really be called "homely" and it's arguable that she's just self-deprecating. 

PalJoey and Gaveston would be more knowledgeable about this than me, but apparently it was very apparent from the entrances of Sally and Phyllis that they were not of be same class. Alexis ran the stage in her long regal gown while Dorothy pranced around in her short pink dress. If I'm completely honest, I actually prefer Dorothy's dress - maybe had I been around when Alexis's dress was fashionable it would it would make more sense to me, but I vastly prefer the plainer pink dress to the long and slinky red dress. 

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Of course there are other characters from Follies who could be described as homely, but it mostly depends on the production, since besides a few one liners and maybe a solo pastiche song, there's not a lot to describe their looks. I know Hattie, Stella, and Emily are pretty much always plainer than Phyllis or Carlotta.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Double Post.

[poisonivy2]

Mary in Merrily We Roll Along is supposed to be somewhat homely right? Actually Mary and Charley are both supposed to be the homelier, less glamorous friends of Franklin Shephard Inc. and his trophy wives Gussie and Beth.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

This is an odd thread.

"Homely" has always been, to me, a slightly nicer way of saying "ugly" or otherwise unattractive. "Plain" means "average" or just unnoteworthy.

Some characters by way of the plot are supposed to be ugly (Fosca), plain (Jane Eyre, Catherine Sloper), or fat (Tracy Turnblad, usually Tony Esposito), but that has nothing to do with whether an actor who famously played a certain role subjectively falls into one of those categories.

[poisonivy2]

I don't think homely means unattractive. For me it means plain and a bit odd-looking, but not ugly. Like Ben Platt is homely. He's not ugly but he's sort of plain, short, and his face is sort of odd-looking. Another example of a homely actor is Patti Lupone. She's not ugly but her features are a bit odd and if she were just walking down the street you'd think of her as a plain little lady.

Of course some actors with the help of makeup and body language can look homely when they are anything but. Donna Murphy in Passion is a great example -- Donna is very beautiful IRL but was able to suggest a homeliness when she played Fosca.

[Jarethan]

Sally Durant Plummer said: "It could certainly be argued that Sally Durant in Follies is homely. She refers to having a tummy and her hair being to bleached. Her first solo speaks primarily about how she and her life have changed in 30 years - revealing that she doesn't really feel "beautiful" or like a "princess" - even in Buddy's eyes. Of course, Bernadette Peters, Victoria Clark, or Dorothy Collins couldn't really be called "homely" and it's arguable that she's just self-deprecating. 

PalJoey and Gaveston would be more knowledgeable about this than me, but apparently it was very apparent from the entrances of Sally and Phyllis that they were not of be same class. Alexis ran the stage in her long regal gown while Dorothy pranced around in her short pink dress. If I'm completely honest, I actually prefer Dorothy's dress - maybe had I been around when Alexis's dress was fashionable it would it would make more sense to me, but I vastly prefer the plainer pink dress to the long and slinky red dress. 

Sally was definitely not homely; hell, she was a Ziegfeld-type showgirl in her youth.  I saw Follies in its original incarnation 5 times.  Collins consistently played her the same way...as a woman who has become a little dowdy in middle age.  The pink dress was dowdy, the color was not good, it screamed 'I have no fashion sense, but I am trying to look as glamorous as I can.'  

Alexis Smith was tall and willowy, with auburn hair (at least that is what was on stage).  Phyllis came to the event planning to knock everyone's socks off.  She was rich, dressed it, and wreaked of glamour.  And the pants outfit (that is what I always assumed it was, not a gown) was a perfect foil to Sally's Macy's rack.

The fact that she doesn't feel beautiful has nothing to do with whether she is actually beautiful or, in fact, homely.  She has gotten older, she has stopped fussing about her appearance, she let her figure go a bit, although you have to take that on faith, since Collins, Peters and Clark do not present as having much body fat. 

In 1970, it came down to visibly glamorous and seemingly self-assured to striving to hide the years and lacking in confidence.

 

[VintageSnarker]

poisonivy2 said: "I don't think homely means unattractive. For me it means plain and a bit odd-looking, but not ugly. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homely

plain or unattractive in appearance 

Thank you @The Distinctive Baritone. I've been feeling the same way.