AHA has passed the House vote

[newintown]

It's still silly metaphysics - i.e., believing in something imaginary. Have at it, if you will, but it's the same thing. Zeus, Jehovah, Mithra, Odin, Ra, Osiris, Buddha, Allah, Jesus, Dracula, AA's higher power, Shakti Gawain, "fate," Titania the Fairy Queen - none of these critters are creating order for you. At best, they're a placebo.

But this is all pointless - believers are not thinkers.

[madbrian]

newintown said: "...But this is all pointless - believers are not thinkers."

I am not a person of faith, and in the history of the world far more bad than good has been done in the name of some god.  However, that does not negate the good that has been done, and it's just wrong to broadly categorize those of faith to be non-thinkers.

[newintown]

"...it's just wrong to broadly categorize those of faith to be non-thinkers."

Perhaps I should have been more specific, at the risk of verbosity. Believers do not, as a rule, think critically about the implausibility of their metaphysical beliefs. They rely upon something which they call "faith," rather than "thought." They have to, as metaphysics are, by definition, unverifiable.

I don't deny the good that metaphysical belief has done for many; for them, it has permitted them to continue to exist. Without it, they would either sink under the weight of their terror of chaos, or turn to nihilism. They can't conceive of a sense of morality that exists without being dictated to them by a higher power.

[madbrian]

newintown said: "...Believers do not, as a rule, think critically about the implausibility of their metaphysical beliefs. They rely upon something which they call "faith," rather than "thought."..."

Again, I would disagree.  There are many who let their faith inform their lives without totally controlling it.  I do agree there are some who live blindly by their faith, and your description fits them aptly.

That said, we're both guilty of threadjacking here, so let's agree to disagree and get back to Trumpcare.  I'm stunned by the pathetic coverage being given to this by the local media I've seen (NBC NY and News12 NJ).  They're glossing over the negative aspects of this bill, ignoring its potentially devastating impact to so many,

[Liza's Headband]

newintown - care to explain how some of the greatest, most progressive thinkers and scientists of our history were also people of faith? 

[newintown]

No, but you go ahead.

[Liza's Headband]

newintown said: "No, but you go ahead."

 

That's what I thought. Have a good one!  :) 

 

xo 

[madbrian]

Anyway, back to Trumpcare.  Looks like the Senate will not move as aggressively as the House did.  At least they'll wait for a CBO score.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/04/house-health-care-bill-senate-doa-238000

[kdogg36]

To bethnor, or anyone who is interested: how do we avoid a transfer of resources from those who make good choices to those who make bad ones? For instance, from non-smokers to smokers, or from those who watch tv and eat Doritos all day to those who exercise regularly? A healthcare system that does that kind of thing would incentivize unhealthy choices. Is that a concern for you?

Regarding what I consider the more important discussion here, I'm on team newintown all the way. I am anti-faith. 

[adamgreer]

Assuming McConnell doesn't remove the 60 vote threshold, the current bill will be DOA in the Senate, anyway, unless useless DINO's like Heidi Heitkamp and Joe Manchin all jump ship. 

[madbrian]

There is a perfectly valid discussion to be had regarding the merits of faith.  In fact, it's important enough to warrant its own thread.  However, the current, extremely relevant topic is Trumpcare.

[Liza's Headband]

That was only part of kdogg's comment.  I'd love to hear someone who supports universal/single payer healthcare to respond to kdogg's questions

[madbrian]

adamgreer said: "Assuming McConnell doesn't remove the 60 vote threshold, the current bill will be DOA in the Senate, anyway, unless useless DINO's like Heidi Heitkamp and Joe Manchin all jump ship."

I don't think McConnell has control here.  I believe the CBO score will drive this.  My understanding is that if the CBO shows Trumpcare will increase the deficit, they'll need 60 votes.  Can anyone verify?

[madbrian]

Liza's Headband said: "That was only part of kdogg's comment.  I'd love to hear someone who supports universal/single payer healthcare to respond to kdogg's questions"

I would disagree with kdogg assertion.  Universal healthcare would encourage preventative care and make healthy choices more accessible.  In my opinion, the argument that it would incentivize laziness is a losing one, one which plays into mindset that the poor are inherently leeches.

[Liza's Headband]

^ Do you have data and stats to support this theory/opinion? 

[Liza's Headband]

^ Do you have data and stats to support this theory/opinion? 

[madbrian]

Liza's Headband said: "^ Do you have data and stats to support this theory/opinion? "

No, that's why I stated it as an opinion/disagreement.  Trust that if I had supporting data, I would have worded my response differently, and provided reference(s). 

That said, though not scientific data, many of the countries listed among the healthiest in the world (link below) provide some form of universal healthcare.  Again, not necessarily scientific data, but it does support my points.  The US is usually listed among the least healthy countries, which tends to indicate our current system does practically nothing to incent good decisions.

http://www.cntraveler.com/gallery/healthiest-countries-in-the-world/10

[kdogg36]

madbrian said: "I would disagree with kdogg assertion.  Universal healthcare would encourage preventative care and make healthy choices more accessible.  In my opinion, the argument that it would incentivize laziness is a losing one, one which plays into mindset that the poor are inherently leeches."

To be clear, I didn't say anything at all about poor people being leeches. My impression is that they work harder on average than rich people. 

There will be people making healthy and unhealthy choices within any group, regardless of income level.  I see it within my peer group. And, hey, we should all be able to make our own choices about what we do with our bodies. But if everyone is paying equally and receiving healthcare services equally, it's inevitable that non-smokers will, on balance, be subsidizing the costs of smoking. 

If you think that's an acceptable price to pay for universal coverage, that's fine, but it's something to think about and talk about. 

Regarding level of health and how it correlates with the kind of healthcare system a country has, of course we need to tease out cause and effect, which is always a thorny issue!

[madbrian]

kdogg36 said: "To be clear, I didn't say anything at all about poor people being leeches. My impression is that they work harder on average than rich people."

You are absolutely correct, and I apologize for my inference.  It was not my intention.

[kdogg36]

No problem, just wanted to make my thoughts as clear as possible!

[bethnor]

Liza's Headband said: "And then there are those who do not believe in what you've just spewed, but rather believe in cosmic destiny, universal fate and innate spirituality; that is not religion. 

in typical fashion, apologists call religion they don't like or identify with, "not real religion."  too bad religion has been using that excuse for... well, hundreds of thousands of years, after centuries of inflicting misery and suffering.

and what i have "spewed" is not belief.  it works.  for instance, the virus HIV relies on reverse transcriptase as well as integrase enzymes.  with this knowledge, we were able to engineer nucleoside/nucleotide reverse transcriptase inhibitors, which caused a premature termination of transcriptase activity.  and when you give such an NRTI to a pt with HIV... it works.  same with the integrase inhibitors, dolutegravir and the upcoming cabotegravir.

if you ever get CML, by all means, since all what i said was "spew," feel free not to take the tyrosine kinase inhibitors, which were engineered with the same inductive process.  and so on and so forth with all medical advances, which, according to the side you like to advocate for, is "just a theory."

spew that.

[bethnor]

Liza's Headband said: "newintown - care to explain how some of the greatest, most progressive thinkers and scientists of our history were also people of faith? 

cognitive dissonance.  one does not inform the other.  newton tried to turn lead into gold and set his hair alight during the process. that doesn't diminish his discoveries or make them untrue.

"