Bernie should have been the nominee

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Besty, I think it's fair to assume that the piece of sh!t person who started this thread is, indeed, clueless.

[kdogg36]

ray-andallthatjazz86 said: "Besty, I think it's fair to assume that the piece of sh!t person who started this thread is, indeed, clueless."

I think he's probably right (basing that judgment on the thread title, rather than the somewhat confusing post), and it's certainly a conversation worth having. Many people on this thread are behaving terribly, and owe the OP an apology.

 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Hmm, kdogg, I thought you believed in voting on principle. You seem to be contradicting some of your other posts. If the majority of Democrats lined up with the policies of Hillary Clinton, why would you say Bernie should be the nominee? Seems a touch hypocritical.

[kdogg36]

Well, I meant he's probably right in that Sanders might have beaten Trump. He may be wrong, but it's not out of bounds to discuss it. My main objection was to the rather vicious shutting down of that discussion.

[Mister Matt]

Personally, I don't really think it's a conversation worth having.  And I don't think a purposely provocative "Told you so" thread the morning after deserves an apology from the understandably angry people it incites.

[PalJoey]

[mar6411]

Mister Matt said: "Personally, I don't really think it's a conversation worth having.  And I don't think a purposely provocative "Told you so" thread the morning after deserves an apology from the understandably angry people it incites."

Morning after?  He started it at 12:22am - before the election had even been officially called - although it was pretty clear it was going to be Trump.  No apology deserved.

 

[kdogg36]

mar6411 said: "No apology deserved."

Some of the people attacking the OP make Trump sound like Mister Rogers. The OP was probably needlessly provocative, but not nearly as uncivil as those particular posters.

 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

It's a bit much to be lectured on civility on the very day Donald Trump was elected POTUS.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

It's a bit much to be lectured on civility on the very day Donald Trump was elected POTUS.

[qolbinau]

So a couple of points:
 

Regarding the contradiction of the title vs post, yes apologies that was an error on my part.

Regarding my nationality and 'what gives me the right'. I will revisit this but mention this is something I already have discussed during the primary thread - which on a side note was quite a frustrating time to be here and face the wrath of the very anti-Bernie bias on this forum (the fact that in this thread I have literally been wished to die and described as worse than Trump is just tantamount to how emotionally involved some people here are with Hillary Clinton - I think there is some real serious learning I will get to in a second). Anyway, the US is the most powerful country in the world and Australians are involved in this outcome in so many ways - look at even the ASX (share market) reaction - now and in the past (the GFC is called the GFC for a reason), look at foreign policy decisions, look at terrorism risks. I actually could care less 1. if it didn't affect me in any way, and 2. If I didn't have so much respect for the USA as a country (but I do, and I consider the USA to literally be the world leader in all of my vocations/interests).

I agree with kdogg36 and others that, although my post was perhaps needlessly provocative, some of the reaction here has been incredibly intense, even crazy. I understand that this election outcome is pretty much the worst that most here could imagine. I understand that for me then to turn around and 'blame' people for it is quite uncomfortable when in your minds, all you were doing was what you thought would lead to the best outcome.

But let us not now dismiss the topic and hand (as many have done) and assume that there wasn't an alternative, that there wasn't a way out - because then we have learned nothing. During the primary, all the polling evidence suggested that Bernie Sanders did indeed have a better chance of winning against Trump than Hillary - the polling data showed us Hillary could actually lose to Trump. Sure, perhaps it's a bit hard to trust polling data so far out but we also have several good theoretical/causal reasons why Bernie would have won:

 

1. The fact that he is perceived as more trustworthy than both Trump and Hillary - "According to a recent YouGov poll, “Bernie Sanders is the most widely trusted presidential candidate of either party.” - and why is that? For a variety reasons, could it be in part because Hillary refused to publicly release the speeches she gave to Wall Street? Of course when they are leaked and it says things like she has a 'public' and 'private' stance it does not help things. Could it be because she has flip flopped on so many issues (e.g., gay marriage; iraq war; trade agreements; bankruptcy bill). Could it be that she (and the DNC) were accused of rigging the primary process, which then turned out to be TRUE when wikileaks showed that the DNC were trying to favour Hillary (e.g., by thinking about outing Bernie as an atheist) or when wikileaks showed that Hillary had early access to a primary debate question (a question that could have helped Bernie Sanders better connect with one of his struggling demographics, the black voters). 

2. Bernie Sanders was not involved in any criminal scandals that really did hurt Hillary's chances through those unfortunate and ill-timed FBI announcements throughout the election, plus the idea itself as unfortunate as it is - that just being involved in a criminal scandal even if innocent is bad for public image

3. Bernie Sanders fit exactly the 'outsider' image that Donald Trump was able to ride the wave on. They were both anti-establishment candidates who somewhat hijacked the Republican/Democratic parties.

Now, you can say something as ridiculous that "Bernie couldn't get in because he was a Jew" - but I find this a little stupid. If Obama can be elected as a black man, I think Bernie could get in as a Jew. EVEN if this demographic characteristic did hurt him, Hillary was equally (if not more) disadvantaged because she was a woman. I don't think it makes much sense to argue or choose candidates solely based on these demographics.

Personally, I have felt (and the reaction to this thread does not change my mind) that some posters here had a real emotional connection with Hillary Clinton - but if we try to remove this emotion and stick with the facts, it was clear that Bernie was the better choice. People, for some reason, take this so personally - and indeed throughout the primary process on this forum it seemed like people took objective facts about Hillary Clinton as personal attacks. Even now, it is like some people just can't accept the potential uncomfortable reality (not certain, but as discussed above there is good evidence) that just maybe, just maybe voting for a candidate that is widely perceived as untrustworthy (again, nothing personal towards Hillary - this is just the objective facts based on polling data) and involved in criminal scandals (again, nothing personal or assuming guilt here - just the mere fact that it is going on) is not a good idea when it comes to electability in the general election. 

I am slightly upset that the information was all there at the time, yet many people would not (and still won't) accept it. We all have to live with the consequences now (of course, some more than others - but let's not pretend that the USA is, pun not intended, behind a wall and operating independently from the rest of the world, or inaccessible to the rest of the world). 

Perhaps the choice may have been mistaken, the choosing was not. 

 

[South Florida]

Another day for this, this thread is really striking a nerve and the wounds are still open, go away for a few months.  Your faith in polling of Bernie vs. Trump is astonishing given that we can certainly not trust polling at this point but keep spewing, give us time to heal, please end this thread.

[Kad]

"Told you so" from someone outside the country donning their 20/20 hindsight specs (but just making hypothetical jabs at the situation) is really ****ty right now and solves nothing.  

[javero]

.

[qolbinau]

I made these same arguments before Hillary was the nominee on this same forum, so while I am bringing it up after the fact, it is not a 'hindsight' thought in the sense that I am only thinking about it now. As mentioned, the evidence was there - the risks were there.

But the mere fact that it rubs people the wrong way because I am not American really does represent something quite interesting about the human condition and ingroup/outgroup effects. People seem less willing to listen to me because I am not American - this is not a great way to evaluate the merit of arguments. Being Australian has nothing to do with anything I said earlier in this thread - maybe being an outsider actually made me in a better position to evaluate evidence without the emotional baggage attached. 

[Kad]

I'm bringing up the fact you're not American because you seem totally removed from the fact that the country is in a massive state of shock. This is seen as a calamity by millions and millions of people. People are lost and downright scared. New York City has not been this funereal in 15 years.

And all you can do is worry about next time you visit? You come and say "told you so"?  Why? What does that accomplish for anyone or anything other than a blossoming of your own smug gratification?

You are coming off as a callous, pompous asshole. The content or quality of the argument is irrelevant.

[CarlosAlberto]

qolbinau please, do me a favor. You have no business telling us, the citizens of this country what we should or could have done.

 

[qolbinau]

Kad said: "I'm bringing up the fact you're not American because you seem totally removed from the fact that the country is in a massive state of shock. This is seen as a calamity by millions and millions of people. People are lost and downright scared. New York City has not been this funereal in 15 years.

And all you can do is worry about next time you visit? You come and say "told you so"?  Why? What does that accomplish for anyone or anything other than a blossoming of your own smug gratification?

You are coming off as a callous, pompous asshole. The content or quality of the argument is irrelevant.

 

 

 

 


"

 

 

 

I think you raise points that are probably very true. As an outsider, it is hard to really understand what the emotional tone is like for everyone in the USA right now.

And yes, as awful as it sounds - after the way I was treated during the primary thread on this forum (met with much of the same vitriol and racism in this thread - though to a lesser degree given how inflammatory my original post in this thread is), the only concession for this awful election outcome is the slight satisfaction that I probably was right after all. However, this is a very small concession - I would much rather Clinton have been elected. Regardless of which, I think we can still learn things from this very odd election result - electability should be a concern during the primary process. 

[CarlosAlberto]

qolbinau said: "... the only concession for this awful election outcome is the slight satisfaction that I probably was right after all. However, this is a very small concession - I would much rather Clinton have been elected. "

You are smug and arrogant . What are you waiting for an award?!!

[givesmevoice]

qolbinau said: "I think we can still learn things from this very odd election result - electability should be a concern during the primary process."

Please stop acting as though we're children. Learn to read a room, while you're at it.

[kdogg36]

givesmevoice said: "Please stop acting as though we're children."

Admittedly, some people on this thread have reacted in a very juvenile fashion. That's really impossible to deny.

 

[qolbinau]

I do accept the reaction to this thread and think given the context and content, feel it is completely understandable for some people to be upset and treat me the way they are. I am a bit surprised that it got to the point it actually did though...but I don't hold it against anyone personally. In true hindsight, if I could go back in time I would take "told you so" out of the title and rephrase it so that it just pointed out that we probably wouldn't be in this situation if Bernie Sanders were elected (which I find to be an interesting discussion, both during the primary and now). At the end of the day, while I still thought there was more risk voting for Hillary than Bernie for a general election, Hillary was still a good candidate and against Trump I still would have bet a lot of money that she would have won. 

I'm not going to adjust the thread title and attempt to rewrite history because I think people need to stand behind their words, but I do of course acknowledge it is in poor taste. 

 

[haterobics]

qolbinau said: "In true hindsight, if I could go back in time I would take "told you so" out of the title and rephrase it so that it just pointed out that we probably wouldn't be in this situation if Bernie Sanders were elected (which I find to be an interesting discussion, both during the primary and now)."

Not sure anyone wants to dissect a gut punch like this at the detached pace at which you seem comfortable operating. I wish I was as unaffected by it as you...

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Good for you for acknowledging that it was "in poor taste." What do you want fron us? A cookie? A pat in the back congratulating you for how well you handled this? Please, this thread is just the final straw in a series of ridiculous, asinine posts that many of us associate you with. Hence why we feel so confident naming a piece of sh!t person when we see one. Seriously, change your avatar and stop using Sondheim references to justify your piece of sh!t actions.

[CarlosAlberto]

ray-andallthatjazz86 said: "Good for you for acknowledging that it was "in poor taste." What do you want fron us? A cookie? A pat in the back congratulating you for how well you handled this? Please, this thread is just the final straw in a series of ridiculous, asinine posts that many of us associate you with. Hence why we feel so confident naming a piece of sh!t person when we see one. Seriously, change your avatar and stop using Sondheim references to justify your piece of sh!t actions.

 

^ ^ ^ ^ 

 

[adamgreer]

If polling taught us anything this election cycle, it's that the polls meant nothing. Absolutely NOTHING. So for you to say that "polling consistently showed Bernie doing better against Trump than Hillary" means nothing at all. Polling also consistently showed Hillary winning the election. We know how that turned out. And for you to assume that all these rural Trump voters (and the rural voters are what gave Trump this election) would have gone and voted for the Jew if they had a chance shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of religion in American elections.