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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws

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Taryn

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Broadway Legend
joined:1/24/04

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 01:41pm

My answer to that is mental illness. There will always be mental illness. It can't be outlawed nor stopped. It will go on forever. So, if someone wants to kill as a result of mental illness, at least prevent them from using guns.

The mentally ill have a lower rate of violence than the mentally healthy.

Mister Matt

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joined:5/17/03

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 02:08pm

To me, the biggest problem seems to be that Congress refuses to admit that our gun laws really have nothing to do with the Second Amendment. The hypocrisy already exists that certain weapons ARE illegal to own privately.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

Liza's Headband

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joined:5/28/13

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 02:09pm

"The mentally ill have a lower rate of violence than the mentally healthy."

While this is statistically true, we're not talking about the average rate of violence. We're talking about mass shootings and murders.

You do realize all mass murderers over the last 25 years had been treated for - or were diagnosed with - some kind of mental illness, deficiency, etc., and/or were on psychotropic drugs leading up to their rampage... Right? Even Harris and Klebold, who were never formally diagnosed and are the one exception, had been subjected to numerous antidepressant drugs during high school.

http://www.everythingmusicals.com/

Updated On: 5/31/14 at 02:09 PM

Jane2

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joined:2/13/04

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 05:02pm

'The mentally ill have a lower rate of violence than the mentally healthy.'

I don't agree. If you're killing people, you ain't healthy.

Either way, guns shouldn't be available to people.

<-----craves juicy pizza

Updated On: 5/31/14 at 05:02 PM

Addison D.

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joined:5/17/12

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 05:09pm

I think you're inverting the equation, Jane. You're saying that violent people have a higher rate of mental illness--which I'd certainly imagine is true. That's different than the likelihood or frequency of violence within the population of people that suffer from mental illness.

You think, what do you want? You think, make a decision...

Jane2

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joined:2/13/04

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 05:17pm

I don't know what I'm doing. All I know is that I was originally giving my answer to PJ's question -

": Why are there so many killings? Why is there so much violence, both among people facing poverty and in the (mostly white) school shootings?"

I'm not only addressing mass murders, as most people in this thread are. I'm saying that mental illness is the causation of many shootings and that it is not something that can be controlled. EXCEPT, and I repeat, except to control/ban GUNS!

<-----craves juicy pizza

darquegk

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joined:2/5/09

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 05:39pm

I live in Pennsylvania, where the horrific twenty-person stabbing took place a few months ago. I agree that gun control (not necessarily banning, but definitive control) is probably a good idea, but I don't even know if THAT will change where the ultimate issue is.

We are simply not a pacifist culture- we are raised in a sort of religion of violence. Most of our entertainment revolves around violence or violent imagery, and we are told "don't do this cool thing." In many ways, murder is the "heaven" of the religion of violence- it is forever used to tantalize us but forbidden to us. Weapons, and violent actions or icons, are the sacraments of this world view. Taking away all the guns in the world won't change the fact that we are a culture that looks on the existence of violence as not only inevitable, but favorable.

And call me a hypocrite, but I can't imagine that kind of a world or world view for myself. I'm not at all a violent person, but I am known to enjoy action movies, murder mysteries, and other inherently violent, pro-violent activities. PLEASE don't think that I'm using the old "violent music or video games cause violence," argument, because I'm not. But I am acknowledging the fact that we claim to be appalled by violence, but we applaud it in fiction or in the abstract.

Taryn

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joined:1/24/04

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 07:38pm

My point is that the media and our culture in general is quick to make the connection between violent acts and mental illness, when those who are mentally ill are similarly likely or less likely to commit violent acts (and are actually much more likely to be the victims of violence). It distorts the real issue and furthers stigmatization of mental illness. That's seen in this most recent shooting, where this kid is immediately labeled mentally ill, instead of focusing on the fact that his manifestos were formed from the systemic misogny of our culture, and the deep-rooted societal link between masculinity and violence. (NOT in the way that masculinity breeds violence, but in the way that our culture places value on displaying strength through aggression.)

There are so many more issues to address than mental illness (which, God knows, needs so much more education and support in this country). The vast majority of shootings are perpetrated by men, not because men are inherently more violent, but because our culture teaches them to be. Our entire society is sick.

Liza's Headband

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joined:5/28/13

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 07:58pm

... Except that he WAS mentally ill and the therapists he saw for a number of years believed as much. It doesn't always have to be 'either or.' Perhaps it was a combination of his misogyny and mental illness.

http://www.everythingmusicals.com/

HorseTears

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joined:3/25/05

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 08:33pm

PJ - I don't disagree with you that any major change in the culture would have to have a constitutional amendment at its center. It also would require massive campaign finance reform that actually gets enforced and a huge investment in social rehabilitation programs in neighborhoods experiencing gun violence every day. I don't think it's pessimistic to say this will never happen in this country, though. It' just realistic. There's a greater chance that the GOP will come out in favor of raising taxes and the Dems will come out in favor of reinstating school segregation.

The reason this thread is here and the reason we're talking about this is because there was another awful, tragic mass shooting. But those are still relatively rare incidents that will be forgotten in a few weeks.

The majority of people actually affected by gun violence on a regular basis are also the people most politically disenfranchised and isolated – the ones with the least power. If there was a comprehensive program (which, realistically, would cost 100s of millions) to canvas throughout inner city neighborhoods year-after-year convincing residents of these neighborhoods that if they voted they might actually have a voice in the system, that could potentially be a start. Also funding billions – yes, billions of dollars - worth of social rehabilitation programs in these same neighborhoods in which young men are growing up without support, without hope and without any prospects could be enormously helpful. If this work is left strictly to NGOs, churches, community non-profits etc, they won’t make a big enough impact. This needs the attention and resources of the federal government. But these are the kinds of actions that require years and years of dedication and do not have a quick, easy pay-off as something as attractive as gun buybacks – which have largely been ineffective in the US. And why bother when the people most impacted don’t vote and don’t contribute to campaign coffers?

Without political empowerment, this will go nowhere. Without political action from the people who are ACTUALLY impacted by gun violence on a near daily basis, this is just going to be another upper-middle-class rallying call for blogs and Twitter, that fades with the change of the news cycle.

Jane2

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 09:19pm

"when those who are mentally ill are similarly likely or less likely to commit violent acts (and are actually much more likely to be the victims of violence). "

Care to explain this?

in a perfect society, guns would be banned/controlled, and those who are disenfranchised are helped and everything is a lot more peaceful. OK, those are situations that just might be remedied by man's capabilities. However, nothing will end mental illness. Man doesn't understand it and can't end it. There will always be senseless violence because of that.

<-----craves juicy pizza

SNAFU

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joined:4/20/04

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 09:31pm

And Jane there will always be gun ownership in the US. I am actually OK with that, if there were better regulation. A waiting period, a psych evaluation, a license renewal policy every so many years, much like you must go through to get a driver's license. Does the license for drivers stop all illegal drivers? No but it does cut down on them. Also banning assault rifles and high volume magazines would be a good step as well.

We are a gun culture, always have been. We are not going to get rid of guns completely but we can begin to responsibly regulate then.

Those Blocked: SueStorm. N2N Nate. Good riddence to stupid! Rad-Z, shill begone!

Jane2

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 09:37pm

SNAFU, exactly. Just like a person can always get illegal drugs. There will always be ways to get anything that is illegal, as per the law of supply and demand.

<-----craves juicy pizza

PalJoey

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 09:42pm

It also would require massive campaign finance reform that actually gets enforced and a huge investment in social rehabilitation programs in neighborhoods experiencing gun violence every day.

No, you can't think that way. It becomes over powering.

You have to attack one large issue: amending the Constitution, without which, as you said, nothing can happen.

yr pal,
joey

Blocked so far: suestorm, Master Bates

Taryn

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 09:52pm

Care to explain this?

People with mental illnesses have similar or lower rates of violence than people without mental illnesses. However, they are more likely to be the victims of violence.

Jane2

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 5/31/14 at 10:06pm

In what instances are the mentally ill more likely to be victims of violence. I mean the kind of violence we are talking about here. Shootings.

<-----craves juicy pizza

TheatreDiva90016

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joined:4/10/04

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/1/14 at 01:28pm

Another shooting spree in Northfolk Virginia

"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>> “I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>> -whatever2

SNAFU

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/1/14 at 01:41pm

That is incredibly sad Diva.

Those Blocked: SueStorm. N2N Nate. Good riddence to stupid! Rad-Z, shill begone!

Jane2

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/1/14 at 04:12pm

OK, here we go folks - last night there were SEVEN SHOOTINGS IN BROOKLYN, 11 people injured. And when did it happen? Right after a RALLY FOR GUN CONTROL.

<-----craves juicy pizza

TheatreDiva90016

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/1/14 at 04:24pm

TheatreDiva90016

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There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/1/14 at 04:27pm

And then add the one Jane just posted about.....

EricMontreal22

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joined:10/31/11

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/1/14 at 04:34pm

"We are simply not a pacifist culture- we are raised in a sort of religion of violence. Most of our entertainment revolves around violence or violent imagery, and we are told "don't do this cool thing." "

But so does Canada's. So does, for that matter, much of Scandinavia whose main cultural export lately has been particularly gristly crime fiction. Yes, both of these places have far fewer people, so it's hard to judge in comparison, but I do think gun laws play a part.

Liza's Headband

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joined:5/28/13

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/1/14 at 09:54pm

Diva, that list is completely wrong as the majority of those incidents listed do not meet the FBI's classification of a "mass murder."

Per the FBI: Mass Murder is defined as four or more murders occurring during a particular event with no cooling-off period between the murders.

http://www.everythingmusicals.com/

FindingNamo

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joined:7/22/03

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/2/14 at 12:11am

TheatreDiva, you're doing it wrong.

Ahem. Merriam-Webster.com defines "mass" as: a large quantity, amount, or number

In conclusion, Simon & Simon were not real brothers but merely played them on television.

It's a little creepy but it would be worse if you knew what you were talking about.

paradox_error

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joined:8/25/04

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/2/14 at 04:26am

I'm pretty sure Diva listed mass shootings. Injured people count too, you know.

PalJoey

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joined:3/11/04

There will be no catastrophe so ghastly that America will reform it's gun laws
Posted: 6/2/14 at 07:52am

Diva, that list is completely wrong as the majority of those incidents listed do not meet the FBI's classification of a "mass murder."

To paraphrase our next president, With all due respect, the fact is we have too many dead Americans. Are they mass murders or mass shootings? What difference, at this point, does it make? It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again.

yr pal,
joey

Blocked so far: suestorm, Master Bates

Updated On: 6/2/14 at 07:52 AM

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