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Musicals Considered the Best Ever...

zamedy
#25Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/25/12 at 10:42pm

GYPSY9 -- I know we've 'talked' before about our mutual love affair with GYPSY and The Merm. You're one of the only ones on this board who was fortunate enough to actually see the Original Broadway cast. Fascinated to hear that you purposely didn't listen to 'Rose's Turn' until you saw the show in person. I have, of course, listened to it ad nauseum on the OBCR. Do you remember what it was like to see the Merm perform it LIVE?! Were there anythings she did, physically, that stuck out in your mind? I know she's been the target of a lot of criticism over the years for her delivery of the "m-m-m-ma-ma" line.. but there are other points in the song where her passion, determination, grit and bulldozer mentality shine like no other.. without coming across as forced or 'acted.'

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Gypsy9
#26Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 8:54am

Zamedy: I do remember Merman doing bumps and grinds during part of "Rose's Turn" and I actually was afraid that she was going to strip, which would certainly have been going too far. I remember feeling relieved that she didn't. As for the "m...m...m..m..mama" sequence, I am not aware that she has been criticized for that. She was, after all, beside herself up there on stage and the way she stuttered was consistent with her bewilderment. I like your use of the word "bulldozed" her way through part of the song. That she did then and at other times in the show. After all, she was Merman.

Incidentally, yesterday in the NYTimes I posted a comment about Linda Lavin following an article in which she was praised to the skies for her theatre work over the past two seasons. My comment had to do with her briefly taking over the role of Mama Rose in the Tyne Daly production of GYPSY back in 1990. I said that she had misfired in that role and that she had compared unfavorably with Tyne Daly who I had loved in the part, despite her somewhat limited singing ability. Lavin was obviously mis-cast, IMO.


"Madam Rose...and her daughter...Gypsy!"

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henrikegerman
#27Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 9:08am

I remember being less enthused with Tyne than most were. Although I liked her performance, I wasn't blown over and I actually said to myself and others "Why isn't Linda Lavin playing Rose instead?"

Then Lavin took over. And she was not good.

***

Thanks for such a warm welcome, Gaveston.

It's true that the post-title song period of She Loves Me presents challenges, but I've seen them resolved with great success, most recently in the magnificent Roundabout benefit concert.

First of all, let's identify the problem (the kind of problem any musical should be blessed to have). We have just seen, in cracker jack succession, three of the most satisfying, thrilling, exquisitely written and composed scenes/moments in musical theater. George's visit to Amalia's bedside, with its palpable irony and tension (and the charm of "Where's My Shoe?") culminating in a believable softening of their relationship, and then - wham! "Vanilla Ice Cream" - one of the most brilliant songs - a play within a play - ever written for a soprano. And when Amalia is an amazing singer, great actress, and stellar comedienne, an out and out showstopper. Then George has the unenviable task of having to follow that with "She Loves Me," which, when he succeeds is an infectious outpouring of unabashed joy from a protagonist who has been fraught with professional and romantic anxiety since the show started. All in all, what we have just experienced should be pure bliss. And to see O'Hara and Radnor in those roles, taking the audience on a romantic rainbow ride, was an experience that I will never forget.

Are you with me so far? I know that you are.

Now, after all of that, it would seem there is no place to go but down, no matter how good what happens next is. but, if you are lucky, "down" can mean a very satisfying landing on a magic carpet. And if the audience cares as much about Ilona as it does about George and Amalia, with the inestimable Jane Krakowski in the role opposite a Kodaly as devilishly, unctuously and hilariously sexy as Gavin Creel, and expert comic punctuation by an Arpad and Sipos as endearing as Rory O'Malley and Michael McGrath, the next scenes, and "A Trip to the Library" and "Grand Knowing You," are not a "hole" in the middle of a great musical. Rather they are, at once, a thoroughly engaging happy resolution of subplot and a welcome return to earth (after scaling the thrilling heights).

"Twelve Days" may be my least favorite number in the show (which isn't saying a lot, since the score is so damn good) but it still works well as a buildup to the final moments of the play, which when well cast and directed, for my money, comprise the most emotionally satisfying resolution of any romantic comedy.

Have I mentioned that I love this show?








Updated On: 5/26/12 at 09:08 AM

degrassifan
#28Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 11:04am

Ever since I was born, I've heard these three things:

Citizen Kane is considered the best film ever made.

My Fair Lady is considered the best musical ever made.

The Sound of Music is considered the best movie musical ever made.

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ucjrdude902
#29Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 11:09am

I'd like to see the TONY Awards give a "Best Musical of the Decade" every 10 years.

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themysteriousgrowl
#30Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 11:12am


I wish the more common saying were "Kane" is the best American movie ever made.


CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES

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best12bars
#31Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 11:30am

I like a lot of these lists. It's hard to pick one, just like a potato chip.

My personal stage favorites (not based on any specific production) for quality, structure, inspiration, and entertainment are, in no particular order:

Sweeney Todd
A Chorus Line
Gypsy
Ragtime
West Side Story
The Music Man
The Drowsy Chaperone
The King and I
A Little Night Music
Sunday in the Park With George


"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22

djdan1079
#32Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 11:39am

I'm seeing a lot of love for Wicked, and I might have agreed with you two weeks ago. I just revisited the show for the third time and took saw the 1st national tour here in Sacramento this week. I took my 7 year old stepdaughter, who was seeing the show for the first time. Damn, as much as I remember loving the show in New York years ago, it doesn't hold up well for me anymore. It was also interesting that my little one was absolutely calling out some of the holes in the plot that make no sense during the car ride home.

All that being said, I appreciate Wicked in the same way that I do Phantom, in the sense that they were both good "gateway" shows that bring new audiences to theater. When I was in high school, my old drama teacher took a bunch of us to NYC to see our first Broadway show. Phantom was the first thing we saw, then we stood in line at TKTS the next day and he purposely took us to see Falsettos (with Patinkin at that point) to give us a feel for a less showy, more character driven piece. That was the production that made me fall in love with theater and go onto study it in college.

I guess I'm getting off topic here, but my shortlist of greatest musicals would include

Guys & Dolls - my pick from the "classic era". The music is timeless, but the book is strong enough that it could work even as a straight play.

Les Mis- As a 35 year old, I'm part of the "Les Mis" generation and might be biased. But it's hard to find fault with anything about the piece.

Next to Normal would be my pick from the modern era. Similar to Falsettos in being a small, character driven piece, with an amazing story and beautiful score.

Great thread, people!

Jay94
#33Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 12:07pm

Ok, if the Tony's voted on best musical of the decade, what would win?

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Kad
#34Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 12:13pm

Well... considering the current decade is only two years old... Book of Mormon.


"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."

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ClapYo'Hands
#35Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 3:12pm

In my opinion, West Side Story is the best ever - and it seems to be considered to be so more frequently in the UK than in the USA!

If I had my way:

I think it depends on what criteria you're observing.

The best SCORE? WEST SIDE STORY

The best BOOK? WEST SIDE STORY

The best choreography? WEST SIDE STORY

The most innovative concept/method of storytelling? WEST SIDE STORY

But what do I know? I think American Beauty is the greatest movie ever made.

Gaveston2
#36Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 6:30pm

I wish the more common saying were "Kane" is the best American movie ever made.

I've actually heard it called "the best black-and-white movie ever made", even in a film history class. So apparently there are variations (but your point about American provincialism is well made).

Gaveston2
#37Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 6:40pm

Henrik, you're welcome; and yes, I can follow you. Though I will admit I've only seen the show once, I know both the OBC and Roundabout revival recordings well and I have read the libretto a few times.

I think "Twelve Days" is kind of brilliant, actually, but it's too late in the evening to dazzle us with brilliant writing. If it were performed in Act I, I think we'd all point to it as a clever use of music and lyrics. And I think "A Trip to the Library" is hysterical (particularly as performed by Sally Mayes).

Of course, I agree with you about the first half of Act II and the sequence of amazing scenes and songs. But personally, I am so invested in Georg and Amalia by the time he sings the title song that the wrapping up of Ilona's and Kodaly's subplots feels like killing time. As I write this, I realize I shouldn't feel that way (because I like the secondary characters), but I do.

Maybe the focus on the main plot from "Will He Like Me?" in Act I through "She Loves Me" is just too intense to give way to subplots again late in the evening. For me, anyway.

I'm not saying this makes SHE LOVES ME a bad show. Hardly! I have no problem putting it in the Top 20. But I don't see it in the Top 5 with GYPSY, OKLAHOMA! and MY FAIR LADY.

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undercoveractor
#38Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 6:53pm

Has anyone mentioned HELLO,DOLLY!?
For my money, that show is a pretty near flawless musical comedy. Funny, clever, beautifully paced, and exciting. The section of 'Sunday Clothes' following 'We're seven minutes late! All Aboard!' is one of the most exciting sequences in musical theatre for me.

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madbrian
#39Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 8:36pm

I think 1776 belongs in the discussion. There is nothing extra, nothing wasted, no song inserted to serve a character. Everything is about the story. It manages to make a story where everyone knows the ending seem thrilling.


"It does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson

ahamilton
#40Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/26/12 at 10:24pm

Ok, the best ever is hard to choose, because the American musical of book, lyrics and music has evolved over the decades. But here is my list for the most best ever that advanced the art of the American musical.

Showboat Put the idea of advancing the plot through the music into musical theatre. Terrific opera score, but not exactly musical theater as we think of it.

Oklahoma! The first really big Broadway score with triumphant music, comedy, romance, a great variety of score. I don't think the characters are quite realistic, very wooden, but other wise wonderful.

South Pacific Here the music is just as good, but the characters and plot are more believable. More empathy for the characters.

My Fair Lady Again wonderful music and a very engrossing plot that overwhelms the audience with emotion.

OH, JOHNNY A musical written by my collaborator Gary Cherpakov and me. Gary is probably the finest lyricist-composer alive today. By far. A wide range of music from 1940's boogie, to Broadway, to romance, to musical comedy. Just terrific. The plot is more complex than the previously named musical and equally engrossing.

Take a look and listen at www.darienfilms.com or at darienfilmsct on you tube.

ahamilton

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broadwaybabywannabe2
#41Musicals Consider the Best Ever...
Posted: 5/27/12 at 7:20am

GYPSY in my humble opinion is the most perfectly put together musical ever...MUSIC, LYRICS, STAGING, ACTING all come together in a seemless production...not a wasted song or moment in the whole show...it has continued to be produced over the decades because it holds up so well in all those departments...plus it's a great show!...while MY FAIR LADY maybe be perfect in many ways it does not have an ounce of life in it on stage...that is what makes GYPSY stand out...WEST SIDE STORY a close second right behind GYPSY

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RainbowJude
#42"Best Ever" Musicals
Posted: 5/27/12 at 7:44am

bmwpjager wrote: MY FAIR LADY... is structurally perfect. There are no wasted moves, no missing pieces, everything within directly furthers the plot, characters, or theme.

It is unfortunate, however, that the principle character in MY FAIR LADY, a linguist who believes that language (usage) defines one's social standing absolutely, expresses himself in words and sentences that are dotted with linguistic errors that someone of his class in that period would never have made, thereby undermining the musical as a whole. For me, that's a substantial "missing piece", but Lerner, it seems, was often happy to settle for lyrics that were less than meticulously crafted. That's why, as far as I'm concerned, MY FAIR LADY, while great, can't be considered the "best ever".


Musical Cyberspace: a tribute to the musicals of Broadway and beyond.

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henrikegerman
#43"Best Ever" Musicals - Higgins betraying his own verbal class distinctions
Posted: 5/27/12 at 8:05am

^Interesting. Never thought of that. Could you offer some examples?

ahamilton
#44the best musical ever
Posted: 5/27/12 at 9:38am

"It is unfortunate, however, that the principle character in MY FAIR LADY, a linguist" I don't see how you can say this. After all the show is titled "My Fair Lady" not "My Fair Linguist"

While your criticism may be valid, I am not sure it is relevant. It is how the audience seeing the show perceives it, not, at least for me, if the language does not perfectly mirror the period as it was lived.

But an interesting comment.

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RainbowJude
#45"Best Ever" Musicals
Posted: 5/27/12 at 4:34pm

henrikegerman wrote:Could you offer some examples?

For a start, there are the obvious ones in "Why Can't the English?: 'hung' instead of 'hanged', the error of the tense in 'there even are places where English completely disappears' and the Americanism in 'I'm afraid we'll never get'. Higgins simpy wouldn't make those mistakes.


Musical Cyberspace: a tribute to the musicals of Broadway and beyond.

Gaveston2
#46My Fair Lady
Posted: 5/27/12 at 4:57pm

I don't see the error in "places where English completely disappears". Obviously, Higgins has anthropomorphized the English language, and that sort of figure of speech was known long before Edwardian England. And isn't it consistent with Higgins' character, that he would think of English as a living thing?

But I'm not posting to defend Lerner except to say whatever errors he made were not made for lack of meticulous effort and attention. In their divorce proceedings, his wife at the time testified to the countless hours Lerner spent on each page of the libretto, including several days on the single (invented) phrase, "Wouldn't it be loverly?"

Lerner was an American not even born until the very end of the period of the play and musical. It shouldn't surprise us if some American constructions crept into his script. It's easy to look up what a period character WOULD say; to my knowledge, there's no equally accessible method of determining what a character WOULD NOT say.

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RainbowJude
#47My Fair Lady
Posted: 5/28/12 at 12:16am

Gaveston 2 wrote: I don't see the error in "places where English completely disappears". Obviously, Higgins has anthropomorphized the English language, and that sort of figure of speech was known long before Edwardian England.

Yes, that figure of speech is called personification. However, it is not Higgin's use of figurative language that is the problem here. As I said, it is the tense: the line should read "where English has completely disappeared" if it is to mean what Higgins means when he is talking about the use of English in places like America.

Gaveston 2 wrote: I'm not posting to defend Lerner except to say whatever errors he made were not made for lack of meticulous effort and attention. In their divorce proceedings, his wife at the time testified to the countless hours Lerner spent on each page of the libretto...

In that case, the glaring errors in his lyrics only make him less of a lyricist to my mind, particularly given that during this point of Lerner's career there was a greater concern with language than there is today. The thing is, I'm not advocation that every character in musical theatre should speak and sing in perfect grammer with a highly refined idiomatic use of language. Were these lyrics in, say, COCO, it probably wouldn't be an issue as it is in MY FAIR LADY. Even if they were foisted off onto Freddy in MY FAIR LADY, one could argue, rather shakily, that it is not problematic in the way that it is when they are issued from Higgins's lips. One of the fundamental points that defines Higgins as a character is his use of language. It is the lyrical equivalent of costuming Coco Chanel in unstylish clothing or directing the actor playing Freddy to speak in a Cockney accent.


Musical Cyberspace: a tribute to the musicals of Broadway and beyond.

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My Oh My
#48My Fair Lady
Posted: 5/28/12 at 2:00am

I really dig Show Boat, Evita, and A Chorus Line. Those are three of the greatest musicals I've seen/heard. As for ever written, who knows? I'd answer the question if I were familiar with every musical ever written.

Les Miserables is pretty nifty, too.


Recreation of original John Cameron orchestration to "On My Own" by yours truly. Click player below to hear.

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bwayphreak234
#49My Fair Lady
Posted: 5/28/12 at 2:43am

I will never understand the hype surrounding My Fair Lady. I find it to be one of the most boring musicals ever written. I have seen it three times (one was even the critically acclaimed Cameron Mackintosh production), and all three times I have been bored out of my mind. I designed the set for a production of My Fair Lady as well. Yes, some of the songs are nice, but other than that it is just beyond boring IMO.


"There’s nothing quite like the power and the passion of Broadway music. "