Deaths, injuries after reports of explosion at Ariana Grande concert at Manchester Arena

[ErikJ972]

Ugh you're just as smug as Q.

1. I'm not a democrat.

2. I've posted about Obama and drones several times on this very board.

[PalJoey]

 

"Our response to this violence must be to come closer together, to help each other, to love more, to sing louder and to live more kindly and generously than we did before."

--Ariana Grande, May 26, 2017

 

All the rest is bullcrap.

 

[PalJoey]

[qolbinau]

They are nice words but they are very easy to say and it sounds a lot like doing nothing to me. But I guess that's why these keep happening again and again and again. And why it will continue to happen again and again and again  

22 people just died and the action that has been described is to love each other? My suggestions for reducing religious beliefs in society may be towards the more long-term end of the spectrum (through improved education systems and discussion) but at least it has a clear theoretical rationale for why it will work and is clearly defined. To give immunity to people such that when they are exposed to the disease that is these radical and false beliefs they don't succumb to the ideas. 

 

[qolbinau]

Not to mention the countless other benefits for societies in terms of attitudes and rights for women and gay people. Scientific progress. Reducing spread of STIs (Africa condom use) etc. etc. 

Has "Come from away" brainwashed users of this board to think somehow all religious beliefs are benign and it is possible we can all live in harmony? Your nearest republican Christian whack job will agree as long as we are all living under the Bible. 

[Jane2]

Call me a "the glass is half empty" type of girl, but through all these suggestions and long winded posts, I still say that all the education in the world means nothing to a demented mind.

[qolbinau]

The assumption that Islamic terrorists are mentally ill though can not be granted and is itself a controversial claim. I understand that when we apply our own morality and belief systems to these behaviours that thinking they are mentally ill sounds like a reasonable explanation. However, within the context of their own ideology/belief system/religious texts it is perfectly rational and not necessarily the sign of a mental illness. If someone believes that their particular interpretation of religious dogma is how God intended it - the most powerful being in existence that will determine the fate of ever lasting life and happiness not only for them but their family - it is perfectly sane, reasonable and rational that they might accept certain ideas that seem insane to us. 

 
The situation is so much more complex than can be solved by simply ignoring it and having group hugs. I wish that were the answer. 
 

[Jane2]

Well, I'm not limiting the mentally ill to Islamic terrorists, and I sure didn't say all of those people were.

I"m saying that in general, there always has and always will be those who are mentally ill. It's a disease just as we're not perfect, and many of us have diseases, including those of the brain.

And don't include me in the "group hug"  club. Do include me in the shakers of the head group who just doesn't have a solution.

[Dave28282]

Dana's remarks on the Manchester terrorist attack:
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1fJSbSqCX0

[UncleCharlie]

qolbinau said: "The assumption that Islamic terrorists are mentally ill though can not be granted and is itself a controversial claim. I understand that when we apply our own morality and belief systems to these behaviours that thinking they are mentally ill sounds like a reasonable explanation. However, within the context of their own ideology/belief system/religious texts it is perfectly rational and not necessarily the sign of a mental illness. If someone believes that their particular interpretation of religious dogma is how God intended it - the most powerful being in existence that will determine the fate of ever lasting life and happiness not only for them but their family - it is perfectly sane, reasonable and rational that they might accept certain ideas that seem insane to us. 

 
The situation is so much more complex than can be solved by simply ignoring it and having group hugs. I wish that were the answer. 
 

Yesterday afternoon, in Portland, Oregon, two women believed to be Muslim, one of whom was wearing a hijab got on a commuter train. A white male, known to police as a White Supremacist from his previous activities and interactions with them started screaming at these two women to go back to their country and other hate and religious based epithets. Two male passengers tried to intervene to calm the guy down who then pulled out a knife and slashed their throats, killing both of them as well as stabbing a third passenger. He is in custody. White supremacy if I am not mistaken, is a sociological belief rather than a faith based religion.

Very anxious to understand how your critical thinking classes and de-emphasis and ultimate elimination of religion would have prevention THIS act of terrorism?

[Dave28282]

Last week 22 people died because a man blew himself up who said he did it out of Islam. It's not unusual that this can be confusing to some. Cause and result.

Of course this man is in the wrong, just as everyone who slits anyones throat. (Which, by the way, is happening to many gay men in Islamic countries at the moment too).

Your dangerous left-thinking is part of the problem. What on earth has this confused man to do with you supporting critical thinking classes about religion and a wider view in general? Everybody has an advantage learning more about anything.

 

[UncleCharlie]

Dave28282 said: "Last week 22 people died because a man blew himself up who said he did it out of Islam. It's not unusual that this can be confusing to some. Cause and result.

Of course this man is in the wrong, just as everyone who slits anyones throat. (Which, by the way, is happening to many gay men in Islamic countries at the moment too).

Your dangerous left-thinking is part of the problem. What on earth has this confused man to do with you supporting critical thinking classes about religion and a wider view in general? Everybody has an advantage learning more about anything.

 

So... hate crime by a Muslim... BAD - end all organized religion.

Hate crime by a white supremacist... Unfortunate, but hey, sh!t happens, man.

And it was only 2, not 22, right?

I was told or at least given the distinct impression all these critical thinking classes were supposed to end these hate filled senseless acts of violence predicated by or towards someone based on their religion. Maybe hate based killings for the myriad of other reasons people kill doesn't need to be addressed as long as it's not related to religion? I guess I'm just a confused, dangerous thinker.  I am however impressed you were able to bring the Manchester bomber back from the dead to have him say to you what he did it "out of" cause I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying anything to anyone.else after the incident. 

 

[qolbinau]

UncleCharlie, I definitely don't want to give the impression that better education systems are the solution to all the world's violence. I mean, for this particular example I think there is some education that could help - unfortunately people (both the left AND right) seem to confuse criticism of ideas with criticism of people. On the right, this manifests as people targeting likely innocent muslims in public and accusing them of being terrorists, shouting at them, violence or other such behaviours. On the left, this manifests as people being 'outraged' that criticising a belief system is the same thing as 'hate', the same thing as accusing all Muslims of being terrorists or similar to the right-wing bigoted ideas. This is even more reason why I think left-wing politicians do need to lead thought here and educate/lead the public to disentangle the criticism of ideas from the criticism of people. They are very different! Both the left and right need to focus on criticising ideas, not people. 

 

Was very, very please to see there was a Muslim march against extremism in Manchester recently. This will be good for the perception of the Islamic community and hopefully a little bit effective at not letting those with extremist beliefs feel they are carrying out the mission of a 'true Islam'. What I didn't like was some commentary claiming they shouldn't have to, and I read one particular analogy saying that white men shouldn't have to apologise for Hitler. This particular comment just shows how some people refuse to accept the relationship between religious beliefs and behaviour. It is time for the Islamic community to take ownership, acknowledge the potential issues with their belief system and have an internal revolution to reform the religion - offer clear and new interpretations and ways of dealing with their belief system/religious text so that people cannot be swayed the wrong way with it. It makes it much harder that they don't have centralised leadership - thus, it has to be from the ground up. All muslims have this responsibility. 

[Dave28282]

UncleCharlie said: "So... hate crime by a Muslim... BAD - end all organized religion."

When there's a problem, you have to look at it's cause. The cause of this attacker blowing himself up is him being taught as a kid that Allah is almighty. These seeds were planted in his mind long ago. Whatever Allah says you must do, you'll do. That is what he was chanting in the streets weeks before the attack. From there it's only a small step to believe you are doing the right thing when in fact you do something bad. This mindset is not created overnight. And this influences both good and bad deeds. We could even argue how much worth good deeds have if they don't come out of yourself. The whole persona gets somewhat disconnected from reality. So the cause is not the "friend" who comes up with the idea to blow himself up, it's his deeply rooted conviction to do anything Allah wants. And whatever that is, is different in each Muslim. Just like it is in any other religion. We can only hope it's all good things. Like I always say, the Muslim and the Christian who are convinced that their god loves gays actually have the same belief.

Now, the guy you bring up. Terrible crime. In his case, the cause is probably fear. And ignorance. And yes, someone like that too benefits much from a wider worldview. But it does not make the above any less bad, so what is your point. We are discussing the influence of religion on people's behaviour here. Of course there are also crimes out there that do not come from religion.

 
 

[SNAFU]

So Dave are you suggesting that the White Supremist did not have the seeds planted early and that they were nurtured? Was he himself not seen in public displays chanting and spouting his ideology that Whites are Superior to all others? The thing is not all terrorism is religion based, a great deal perhaps but not all. How does the belief that "My God is greater then yours" differ from "My race is better then yours"?

[kdogg36]

SNAFU said: "So Dave are you suggesting that the White Supremist did not have the seeds planted early and that they were nurtured?"

Speaking for myself, of course it was nurtured. We have a genocidal psychopath on our twenty-dollar bill, and people who claimed to own human beings on various other bills and coins, and there's no great public clamor against any of this. This is proof absolutely positive that we have an education system based on white supremacy.

[SNAFU]

Also to say one is due to religion and the other is due to Fear and being uneducated is sort of a false comparison is it not? Isn't religion set in place for people who fear death and eternity? If you make your Sky Fairy happy you will live forever,even if to make him happy you must end your life here.

 

[kdogg36]

UncleCharlie said: "Yesterday afternoon, in Portland, Oregon, two women believed to be Muslim, one of whom was wearing a hijab got on a commuter train. A white male, known to police as a White Supremacist from his previous activities and interactions with them started screaming at these two women to go back to their country and other hate and religious based epithets"

I wanted to say something about this attack in Portland. Apparently, the murderer was a member of the Libertarian Party. I want to make it clear that this kind of person has no place at all in the libertarian movement. On the most basic level, this asshole responded to words with force, and that is a fundamental betrayal of libertarian principles, which insist that force is only appropriate as a response to others who use force against you. Even more than that, though, real libertarians are fiercely concerned with the civil rights of those in the minority. Whether we agree with Muslim beliefs or not, we absolutely demand that every single person respect the right for Muslims to live and worship in peace. 

I don't think you'll find a true libertarian who disagrees with any of this. We're appalled that this person claims to be a libertarian.

[Dave28282]

I think we could say in both cases it's fear and ignorance. Which is the basis for religion and many bad deeds. Also good deeds, but these people are per definition potentially dangerous as there is a disconnect from reality.

More knowledge and a wider worldview is necessary for all.

Today there was a story in the news that a Muslim guy, a vlogger was shot to death during a sun-down Ramadan barbecue. Another Muslim walked by and shot him and walked away, It happened in 10 seconds. The shooter said Allah told him to do this, because the victim was not a real Muslim because he was becoming famous through social media. Now, other Muslims are saying the shooter was no real Muslim. This "finger pointing" to eachother in the name of someone else is the most dangerous thing. At least when you point a finger to someone else out of yourself there is some kind of accountability possible.

But yes, in both cases, the mentioned solutions are very important.

[Jane2]

lunatics

smh

[SweetLips]

Dead is dead ! Ain't no more----my uneducated opinion.

[madbrian]

kdogg36 said: "...I don't think you'll find a true libertarian who disagrees with any of this. We're appalled that this person claims to be a libertarian."

I wonder if this is what peaceful Muslims go through when someone commits violence in the name of their religion.