Posted by Jane2 2012-04-17 16:34:58
Did anyone see the premiere episode of this new series last night? I liked it so far and will be watching the next one. Pretty risque-very HBO!
oops, I mean Sunday night.
Posted by FindingNamo 2012-04-17 16:53:02
Yeah, I liked it for a pilot. There were some good laugh out loud moments. It irks me that the circle of friends is all white. And that they somehow managed to find a white actress named Jemima, of all things, to play one of them.
Posted by Jane2 2012-04-17 17:26:39
yeah, I noticed that too. I was happy to see Adam Driver (the doggie style sex master). I've been a fan since I saw him in Signature's Angels in America as Louis.
Although this is a whole new generation from mine, I related to so much of the dialogue and some of the experiences from my own coming of age. I give kudos to the writer.
Posted by FindingNamo 2012-04-17 17:30:52
I like the kind of grungy drudgy vision of New York as opposed to the shiny, commodified view on Sex & The City.
Posted by Jane2 2012-04-17 17:41:11
And I loved the stab at texting, et al-"If he won't answer my emails, tweets, texts, etc, how am I ever going to see him in person?"
Posted by Jane2 2012-04-17 17:55:35
wow, "Hannah" is the writer! wow. only 26.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-17 22:28:08
Yeah Lena Dunham had a film out last year, Tiny Furniture. I liked it, but so far I like Girls more. She had a profile in the New Yorker last year (and apparently has a smaller one now...) http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2012/03/lena-dunham-girls-hbo.html
Posted by FindingNamo 2012-04-17 22:30:02
She directed the show too, right?
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-17 23:04:34
Yes, she directs the first three episodes.
Posted by strummergirl 2012-04-17 23:44:13
I really liked it but felt uncomfortable in moments that I think the show is well-aware of what it is doing. I know these kind of girls and I have been in similar circumstances (the job and parent issues). I like to think I am and will not that co-dependent on my parents but the first 5 minutes where her parents cut her off were like a bad premonition.
I loved the Chris Eigeman cameo as the boss who tells Hannah the other person in the office they hired is paid because she knows photoshop.
Adam Driver plays creepy boyfriend very well and Andrew Rannells is going to be in either next week's episode or the following week.
Jemima Kirke was in Tiny Furniture as a similar wallflower to Hannah and abettor to her poor decision-making. I think she and Lena Dunham have been real-life friends for a while.
Tiny Furniture for a debut is very good though I was surprised Criterion selected it. Certain similarities to the pilot such as uncomfortable sex scenes with the worst guys ever and Dunham as the lead in an arrested development but it is pretty raw, Dunham's mother, Laurie Simmons, and sister play her mother and sister. The pilot is a much more polished product (Dunham's acting and comedic timing are a lot better) and yet I can think of only a handful of shows (Louie as one example) that are this open and frank about what is.
Posted by Jane2 2012-04-18 09:25:25
"the first 5 minutes where her parents cut her off were like a bad premonition."
For me they were a good premonition. The parents' wanting to give tough love was admirable to me, and by the same token, Hannah had some legitimate reasons for staying under their financial support. Both sides of the issue were accurate to real life situations. At that point I knew I would love the series.
Posted by MrMidwest 2012-04-19 16:38:39
Posted by strummergirl 2012-04-19 17:09:36
False equivalency, yes, and worse that it was put out on the internet which will never go away. But I get the fact they are trying to deal with the backlash (some of which is unfair and fair game) but that is just a stupid way of answering it. Honestly, I am glad they are not trying to pretend they know how to represent people they have had little interaction or experience with rather than have things like Sapphire pretending to know anything about living under the welfare system in the Reagan 80's (black or white, Precious/Push was pretty terrible in its class issues) or something as so acceptedly middle-brow as Chuck Lorre representing nerds/geeks/smart people on TBBT. But it is also the first episode and I have no idea how diverse it is supposed to be and critic screeners only got 3 out of I think 10 episodes.
I never heard this much buzz ping-pong of good and negative press for a show before even the second episode has aired.
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-04-19 17:18:21
That doesn't sound like dealing with the backlash. That reads (especially with the rest of that stuff at the link Mr Midwest posted) like someone who is profoundly tone-deaf on why there's backlash.
As for the show, it was okay. I didn't love it but I didn't hate it.
Posted by MrMidwest 2012-04-19 18:01:55
Posted by Jordan Catalano 2012-04-19 18:38:41
I like it when people have nothing better to be upset over.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-19 19:15:30
Ugh. She should really just shut up. I get the criticism, and I also get (I think) her point, but she's not doing herself any favours by how she expresses it--does she blog while drunk? I guess she's a story editor or something--she's not listed on the scripts as one of the co-writers, at least up to episode 8...
Posted by Jane2 2012-04-19 22:48:45
I do not care what is going on behind the scenes or who said what. I enjoyed watching the show.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-19 23:12:48
That's how I feel. Her comments, while stupid, aren't the equivalent of (to bring up another thread) Mel Gibson's diatribes or anything similar anyway. And I think it must be frustrating when you are writing something based on your own experiences and people complain that you need to incorporate more races, etc (though I can see both points). However, like I said, someone really needs to de-activate her twitter account or something, she made her point, but to now write endless diatribes about it is not doing her any favours.
Posted by Jane2 2012-04-19 23:31:19
I'm glad I don't text, or tweet, or do anything like that!
Posted by strummergirl 2012-04-20 00:55:29
It's something to note that Lena's whole attitude while doing press for the show is the opposite of that tweet (and she's pretty active on Twitter too and nothing is on par, she is just posting photos of her meeting other famous people) and she has joked about the negative pull-quotes the show did get, much like she handled Tiny Furniture's response.
Posted by MrMidwest 2012-04-20 12:05:24
A couple more interesting pieces about the show:
Posted by ErikJ972 2012-04-20 13:36:51
Tied to watch but it came off to me as the "privileged young people whining" show. I hated it.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-20 15:16:00
To be fair--and this obviously doesn't mean you should like it--that's kinda the point of the show and its humour.
Posted by ErikJ972 2012-04-20 16:14:11
Of course. But I think it's annoying, not funny.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-20 16:56:45
Fair enough. I find it funny, but it's certainly the kind of show I can pretty easily understand why some wouldn't.
MrMidwest--I really appreciated, and agree with the piece from The Atlantic you posted. I think where the discussion should be directed at is getting more diversity behind the scenes. One reason I feel Girls is unfairly singled out, and I admit I still haven't really made up my mind on this, is when Dunham was hired by HBO they knew what they were getting. She cast and hired friends and people she had worked with before, and over a year back when I first heard about the development process she made that clear.
That's why I don't really get the point of the second link you posted--sure the woman who wrote it went to her school, had similar experiences, and isn't white. But Dunham, in her defence, has always said that this reflects her personal experience, and nepotism or not, it quite literally does. I found some of the discussion under the post hysterical--there's a thread of people praising what Seinfeld did when they had an episode that owned up to the show's overtly white-ness by having an episode where George constantly tries to prove he has black friends, and doesn't. That episode was done in typical Seinfeld fashion as a reaction to the white criticism--and came after YEARS of the criticism (and didn't exactly cause the show to have more lead characters who weren't white in later episodes). Just bizarre.
Posted by strummergirl 2012-04-20 17:44:50
HBO is a network not really known for its diversity. Heck, I am trying to remember if it ever had a female creator, show-runner rather than just a female-led show which itself is not too often. The Wire that was by far the most diverse show done by HBO came from David Simon, a white guy, who had worked in the business of reporting on the life experiences of those across Baltimore.
Lena Dunham did get a question about diversity on the show and responded in a chat:
"As NYC is such a diverse place, are there plans to introduce more people of color in lead or secondary roles?"
"It was a complete accident that it happened this way, I wish that we were representing the population of New York in a more accurate way - and hopefully if we get to do a second season we will. "
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-20 18:58:48
Female show runners are actually one of the goals for future shows from HBO I read--and it sounds like when Alan Ball steps down from True Blood his second in command will take over (I can't remember her name...). But I agree with your point--let's face it female created shows are pretty much a recent thing in general--annoyingly when there are so many strong female tv writers.
I read that quote too--and on another blog it got a ton of nasty replies basically saying she was a liar, she should have represented the city better now, etc. I dunno, at this point I think she's in a no win situation on the subject
Posted by Jordan Catalano 2012-04-20 19:05:25
This is such a ridiculous argument. Seriously, this is one of those "we have nothing better to bitch and moan about right this minute so we might as well invent something" arguments. So what if this show is about four white friends? Even in this city with such a diverse population (and omg my best friend is totally Indian so I know. Like, from India Indian not like the feather kind) there are still groups of white friends. I know it's hard to believe but it's actually true!
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-20 19:33:23
The Atlantic writer mentioned that-- and it is the kind of situation that if they threw in a token ethnic friend I could see people complaining either that it was obvious a white woman wrote her, or that she was turned into an ethnic stereotype.
Posted by iflitifloat 2012-04-20 21:51:47
So have things changed since Sex and the City or Friends, where it was okay for a group of friends to all be white? Some of the judgements against this series strike me as pretty harsh, especially since only one episode has aired.
It feels like reverse racism of sorts when anything written and performed is required to be racially balanced.
And for the record, I took Lesley Arfan's message to be an unfortunate attempt at satire that could easily be taken out of context in print.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-20 22:10:04
That's exactly how I saw Arfan's retorts. Really after her first comment landed like a ton of bricks she should have just dropped it though...
I think what instigated this was that the show has had overwhelmingly positive reviews (it has an 87% on Metacritic), and many of the critics went on about how it speaks to the current young generation in the way nothing else does, bla bla. This also has caused the backlash from people who just find them annoying, over-priviledged characters as well, but that seems to be what most people criticizing the show are refering to. And it's not really fair because I don't get the impression the creators ever set out to write something that spoke to some whole generation.
Posted by strummergirl 2012-04-20 22:25:26
A lot about this show was taken out of context. Namely the scene where Lena's character Hannah tells her parents she 'is A voice of A generation'. Even the previews had her parents flummoxed by this statement. People keep on saying the character promotes this or that the network, reviews have promoted this notion that she is indeed 'the voice/representative of her generation' because of that clip that was shown. Only recently, such as the ONTD post, has there been context mentioned about that scene, namely that Hannah was high as a kite on opium when she makes that 'voice' statement. I really question if people actually watched the show if they think Hannah's character is a spoiled rich girl (her parents are both college professors who have cut her off partly because of how taxing it is for them financially) or that they somehow missed the context of her 'voice' statement.
I think I reached a breaking point on reading anymore controversy about this show (though that Atlantic piece was good, as I would expect from the author of it) when I read a post who cites a source who says 'Lena totally knew black people, I went to her high school!', in supporting this notion that Girls is putting a 'white-wash' on New York City and her own life experience.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-20 22:39:27
COmpletely agreed. So she went to the same school as a woman who is black and apparently only vaguely recognized her at the school due to her tattoos, was not her friend, and is not writing a TV show. Ummm... and that means she should have had a black woman amongst the leads?
Some of the comments after that post are strange too--she makes a joke about how the casting calls for bit parts, to make it more ethnic probabkly said (I paraphrase) "the waitress at the restaurant should be played by a Muslim woman with a strong accent" etc. Even though it's a stupid joke, many of the people commenting on the blog read it as that was what the casting notices *actually said*. I don't know how you can even argue with that...
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-04-20 22:51:32
For what it's worth, Sex and the City and Friends were both often criticized for their homogeneous version of NYC life. It's not that it was okay for those too and it's not okay for Girls, it's more that it was that was twenty years ago, it was that way ten years ago and it's still kinda that way now.
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-04-21 00:02:20
The tweet has since been deleted, but the internet has a way of preserving screenshots. Wow. Where to begin? Precious is about a woman who is, in every way, drastically underrepresented ignored in both the world and pop culture. Black, overweight, poor, illiterate. Girls is about white twentysomething women. Who are not overlooked in life, in TV, in movies. At all. But if the argument is: You can and should be able to enjoy a story about someone different from you, well, that is obvious. A movie about a goatherder in Tibet can touch your heart even if you have never seen a goat or been to Tibet, because you relate to human experiences and emotions. But as James questions: "Why are the only lives that can be mined for 'universal experiences' the lives of white women?" Girls was meant to be different from what we usually see on TV: Highly current, thoroughly modern. But the casting choices are not different. Not modern. To be clear: It's fine that the show is about spoiled, delusional, narcissists. The idea that "if a character isn't exactly like me, I can't relate" is bull****. But that doesn't mean we don't desperately need diversity in the stories being told, characters being explored and actors being hired.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-21 01:09:55
This is what I find frustrating--I agree with the message of that fully. But really they need to be picking on the networks, not on this one show about it... The creator would bristle at the description that her show was meant to be this brave new different work. That was of course how it was marketed, but the creators in interviews never sold it as something like that--they never even said the equivalent of "We're trying to make something people have never seen on TV before" even though they would have been justified in doing so. It's starting to be a scapegoat merely because it shows something that's so prevalent. But all this arguing merely puts the focus on Girls--despite some comments on the greater problem, what the media is picking up on is the "Girls Backlash".
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-04-21 01:39:04
This is another good one.
maybe we should call it "ironic racism." It's a distancing gesture, racism with the acknowledgment that I should know better and I don't care. Assiduously casual, meant to demonstrate a kind of worldliness or edginess, "hipster racism" acts like a behavioral flannel jacket or a trucker cap, a rejection of perceived upper-middle-class values, still wrapped in enough layers of irony to create a distance from the mythical rednecks or hillbillies it's thought to be emulating. Whether or not the hipster racist "actually believes" the bull**** he spouts (or thinks it's some kind of sophisticated satire) is immaterial; it's a posture, a performance, a middle finger to mom and dad and all the "McCarthyist hijackers" who won't let Benjamin Leo say the n-word, or whatever his beef is. (Sometimes, to be clear, it's just cluelessness.) The deep-down beliefs of the hipster racist are also immaterial, it goes without saying, to the subjects of his invective.
Posted by Jordan Catalano 2012-04-21 10:45:29
This is the STUPIDEST argument over anything in the history of everything.
Posted by FindingNamo 2012-04-21 11:17:34
Oh, I've definitely seen stupider. A little ditty called "Kate v. Meredith" springs instantly to mind.
When I first mentioned the racial component at the beginning of the thread, I was definitely intending it to be in the larger context of HBO programming. Sure, go ahead and push something as the "Sex & The City" of a new generation. Good idea, good pitch. But the minute I saw the first promo still I thought, "Really? Another pic of four white faces?" I'm sorry Dunham has so internalized "write what you know" that it wouldn't occur to her to mix things up because every single time we have a chance to do something that will reach an audience, we have a chance to do so. And she opted not to.
The defensiveness of the woman who feels nigger is such a terrificly powerful word basically takes a criticism about white writers and performers thinking white is the default that is universal and turns it into an indictment of actual racism. I find after reading all this that I am much less interested in watching the next episodes. They have every single right to make a series about a group of white people. I'm just surprised the networks haven't figured out that it might be better to reflect the real world.
Posted by Jordan Catalano 2012-04-21 11:27:09
I guess what strikes me as well, offensive, is the argument that four white friends doesn't reflect the "real world". Last week, I went to a dinner party with some really close friends. We were all white and it was most definitely "real". I understand that people want to see themselves reflected on TV, I'm the same way. But I don't need to see myself in every show I watch. And if I did, there are three and a half thousand channels. I'm sure I can find something on one of them that meets that criteria. But not every show is going to reflect every microcosm of society at all times. But that's what people seem to think it should do, nowadays.
If a show doesn't have a black character (LEADING black character that's in no way "stereotypical" and fits criteria A, B, C and D of what WE think the character should be like), an asian character (same criteria), a gay character (or two, actually. One stereotypical and one non stereotypical to show that we're not all the same) and elderly ACTIVE characters to show that just because you're over the age of 80, you don't just sit at home knitting...well then your show doesn't reflect society and real life and has no place IN MY HOME.
The argument comes down to the old "If you don't like it, don't watch it". This is a 30 minute show on SUNDAY NIGHT, the most saturated night of television of the week. You can SURELY find something else to watch on those three thousand channels that you can point to and yell at the top of your lungs "THAT'S ME ON THE TEE VEE!!!!!"
Posted by Jane2 2012-04-21 13:38:34
I agree with Jordan. This is one specific story about four white girls who are best friends. In reality, there are lots of groups like that. In fact, I'm part of a group of 4 white girls who are BF. We've been that way for almost 30 years. Isn't that ok?
Back to the show. Who knows what other important characters will show up later on, and what ethnicity they will be?
Posted by MrMidwest 2012-04-21 15:08:44
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-21 15:26:00
Namo I get your point and I know that *you* meant it in a greater context. I don't think many who are responding to this (not here, but on the various blogs, etc) get that though. Somehow this show has become a whipping horse, and I don't get it. Hate it because you hate that mumblecore quality, hate it because you find them navel gazers, but... I don't blame the creator--this is what HBO wanted from her, a semi-autobiographical series.
Yes, the writer (who doesn't even seem to be one of the major writers) who won't shut her mouth up is not doing anyone any favours. That old interview about the N word was done when she worked at "it's cool to shock people" magazine Vice, and they DID ask her the question basically knowing the answer they would get (I'm not sure her answer was even that offensive, albeit it was stupid--she said she thought that word carried more power and was basically more interesting than ho or bitch did and... it does. But yes, she said it in a much stupider way, but never said "oh it's one I like to always use because it's cool". Her--again stupid--interviews are all being quoted out of any sense of context).
Sadly--or maybe not--I'm not sure that HBO does owe people instead a show that "reflects the real world". As others have said, this show does, in its exagerated way, reflect Dunham's real world... Maybe that's sad, but I'm not sure what more you could ask for unless you made a team of headwriters who were all of different genders, sexualities and race. However, I DO think it's a sad situation, that needs to change, that more non-white people (and women in general) simply don't have the opportunity to pitch some probably great shows of their own.
The fact that even the line in the show people are so up in arms about--where the lead says (under the influence of drugs BTW, and in the show it's meant to sound pretty stupid) something akin to "I want to be a voice of a generation" is now being quoted as her saying "I am the voice of my generation". Some of that is on HBO and their advertising, but hey it's gotten the show FAR more publicity than a low key, female-centric show probably would have had before it's second episode otherwise...
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-21 15:30:23
Most of the negative comments go on about how Mad Men can be basically white (and since season 2 or whenever Sal left) straight because of the era it's set in. Which is a valid excuse, but it reflects that aspect of the world as apparently Dunham's show does hers. I suggest she keep her show and its scripts but set it in 1950s suburbia, which would conveniently avoid any of these issues.
Yes, TV *in general* should reflect the real world better (it probably does, though, compared to big budget Hollywood movies which always seem to be even more behind). But this show has no responsibility to that.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2012-04-21 15:39:46
I wish I could edit my posts *glares at the BWW owners*
"I'm sorry Dunham has so internalized "write what you know" that it wouldn't occur to her to mix things up because every single time we have a chance to do something that will reach an audience, we have a chance to do so. And she opted not to. "
One of the reasons people like writing for HBO is they are far less demandeing than networks at "you need to reach the largest demographic you possibly can". It's niche marketing. They have ignored some niches--and now that they have asked more women to create shows (this and Julia Louis-Dreyfus' apparently very funny, but it looks mostly white, VEEP seem to be the first wave of this) maybe they'll broaden out further--they should. But these shows are about reaching *a* fiercely loyal audience. That's what makes a hit on cable--that you have a more loyal audience than most network shows--not that you have a broader or even larger audience.
Posted by Jordan Catalano 2012-04-21 15:46:39
NO show has that responsibility unless the show is called "Depictions of life In the Real World".
I love REVENGE and there's pretty much only white people there and it's far from realistic. Should it be boycotted and cancelled? What about Tyler Perrys TBS show? Theyre all one race and that shiz is faaaar from realistic. Is that ok since they're not white or does Tyler Perry have the same responsibility people want this girl to have? Or is this only a white people on tv thing?
Posted by picturetaker9211 2012-05-01 02:53:27
Just bringing this thread back because I genuinely want to know what people think about this show since 2 more episodes have aired since this thread was last updated.
I've enjoyed it from the start. It's definitely getting better for me as the show goes on. I just turned 20 & want to move to New York City when I graduate from college. I definitely feel like I can identify with these girls, even though I'm not white. (Trying to read through this whole thread was painful!) I'm probably their target audience.
In the 2nd episode, I really was annoyed with Hannah & wanted her to shut the eff up, but thought she was so much more tolerable in the 3rd. I definitely have a love/hate relationship relationship with that character. Andrew Rannells was wonderful & very entertaining as the gay ex-boyfriend. I don't really care much for Jessa. I love Shoshanna, but I can definitely can see how people would not like her at all. I like Marnie, but she's fairly boring as of now, but getting more interesting after the whole art gallery scene. I wish there was more boyfriend drama or something? Overall, I'm really enjoying it so far!
Posted by Jane2 2012-05-01 07:56:51
I liked the first ep but the second one was TMI. I'm not planning to watch Again.
Posted by strummergirl 2012-05-01 11:56:11
I am not taking the less legal means to watch this show and do not regret it at all. Yes the second episode was kinda a PSA but I loved Marnie's whole reaction to Jessa not showing up for her abortion and Hannah making fun of her. I have no idea why I laughed so hard about Marnie after hearing Shoshanna's revelation of her virginity referencing she hit a dog while on her learners permit, but I did (I think it was mostly because of Shoshanna's facial reaction to that reference).
The third episode was really good and probably my favorite episode overall. The Shoshanna and Hannah rapport was really good and Marnie and Hannah dancing to Robyn at the end was actually kinda poignant.
I also love some of the random cameos like Kathryn Hahn, Chris Eigeman, Mike Birbiglia, and that guy from Lonely Island that Marnie got hot and bothered over. I think Chris O'Dowd shows up at some point too. Rannells was quite excellent as the ex-gay boyfriend.
I just hope Hannah dumps Adam at this point as does Marnie with hers.
I know people think Shoshanna is a bit cartoonish yet I feel like I have had more run-ins with her kind of character than anybody else on the show with the exception to Marnie.
Posted by MotorTink 2012-05-01 13:59:47
I watch a lot of television and yet I cannot get into this show. I try not to be too rash and give a show a chance, but after 15 minutes of the pilot I was so turned off to the show. Definitely not up my alley.
Posted by Tom1071 2012-05-07 16:54:58
I wasn't quite sure what to think about this show at first but I have been thoroughly entertained so far. It makes me laugh out loud. Episode 3 is by far my favorite.
Posted by Mister Matt 2012-05-07 17:25:31
I've seen the first two episodes and was not really wowed or anything. I'll watch the third tonight, but for some reason, it keeps reminding me of Ghost World (though I don't know why) and I hated that movie with a passion. Perhaps it's just too pessimistic or the characters too pathetic for me to enjoy. I can't really put my finger on it.
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-05-07 17:31:08
I think I was pretty much done after the miscarriage ex machina, but I watched the next two and have concluded that now I really am done.
Also, I thought it was .... not really intersting, but kind of funny that Lesly "Precious doesn't represent me ha ha ha" Barfin has a small role last night in which she and a brown woman (yay!) told Hannah sugar was good for her skin.
"Brown sugar," said the brown lady.
"No, white sugar," said Lesly.
Posted by broadwayjim42 2012-05-07 20:18:31
I'm still watching and actually laughed out loud twice last night, but this comedy of humiliation definitely has its limits and will probably wear thin. There's not a completely sympathetic character to be found.
Posted by strummergirl 2012-05-07 20:47:52
I think Shoshanna is sympathetic when her only real flaws are her immaturity/naivete/inexperience.
Did Jessa have a miscarriage or was she just really late and concluded she had to have gotten pregnant? I wouldn't put the latter past her and I think there would be a huge difference between a miscarriage and menstrual discharge (and given I am not a Jessa fan at all, I think her reaction indicated that it was that she was late and she got her period). All the other recaps believe it was her period.
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-05-07 20:51:09
Yeah, I'm not sure. One would think they'd be certain if they were pregnant or not before planning an abortion.
Posted by strummergirl 2012-05-07 23:16:40
Marnie set up the abortion appointment with no questions asked, an act of throwing Jessa a bone and possibly trying to be friends with her rather than just sharing the same friend (hence Hannah cracking 'you threw a beautiful abortion' line). Since Marnie had just met Jessa during the pregnancy revelation, there was no reason for her to believe at the time that Jessa was as personally irresponsible as she truly showed herself to be in the second episode.
Posted by Phyllis Rogers Stone 2012-05-08 00:24:35
Still, flighty or not, I wouldn't let someone schedule me an abortion if I wasn't even sure I was pregnant.
Posted by blueroses 2012-05-08 11:39:33
Whenever I THINK I'm done--and believe me, the characters make me cringe-- something makes me laugh. Zosia Mamet and Adam Driver are the best actors on the show.
Wouldn't the clinic or facility require that you have a positive pregnancy test and an exam confirming pregnancy prior to an abortion? Eh, whatever. I hate the Jessa storyline. And I'm confused about Marnie's job (maybe I'm not paying enough attention). Does she work at an art gallery or a health center? Works at a gallery and volunteers at the clinic? Works at an art gallery that performs abortions as performance art?
Posted by Jane2 2012-05-08 14:25:30
"Wouldn't the clinic or facility require that you have a positive pregnancy test and an exam confirming pregnancy prior to an abortion?"
Yes! Unless they can actually see the pregnancy, they won't perform an abortion.
Posted by picturetaker9211 2012-05-09 02:21:53
I was under the impression that Marnie & Jessa knew each other because of the way Marnie talks about her in the pilot.
I adore Shoshanna. I feel like I can relate to her as a 20 year old virgin, & I'm sometimes a girly girl. She's vulnerable & sweet. Hannah is becoming more bearable, even though I've always liked her. She just makes me cringe sometimes Marnie is there, but I'm excited to see how things play out with Charlie.
Also, shout out to Skylar Astin of Spring Awakening fame who played the Jewish camp counselor this past week!
Posted by henrikegerman 2012-05-09 17:00:45
"Did Jessa have a miscarriage or was she just really late and concluded she had to have gotten pregnant?"
Clinics don't perform exploratory abortions. It was a miscarriage.
Posted by MrMidwest 2012-05-14 11:22:50
I kind of love the show at this point. The dialogue is so sharply written and amusing.
"Someday I'm going to write an essay about this and I'm not going to change your name..and then you can sue me."
Posted by strummergirl 2012-05-14 11:32:28
The Oberlin College flashback was perfect especially noting Hannah's terrible gaydar.
And Shoshanna being in the episode for all but 90 seconds was still used for great comedic effect and I think that is because Mamet is the best actress on the show (the difference between Shoshanna and Joyce from Mad Men is a pretty stark contrast).
Posted by LizzieCurry 2012-05-30 09:20:48
This interview with Andrew Rannells was posted yesterday and I think he has the best response to all the backlash: http://www.vulture.com/2012/05/andrew-rannells-girls-the-new-normal-interview.html
Plus, he addresses the slap, which I thought was ridiculous (but still funny).
Posted by HorseTears 2014-02-20 21:55:25
You guys. Patti LuPone's guesting on next week's ep of GIRLS in a role she was born to play: Patti LuPone. I can only pray there is a scene involving Hannah, Patti and a camera flash.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-02-20 22:19:49
And Patti is dressed the NINES!! Oh lord, that crazy guy from rehab is back?
(I thought you avoided previews, Mr Horsey?)
Posted by HorseTears 2014-02-20 22:27:39
Was she? Her appearance in the preview flashed by so quickly I wouldn't have even known it was her had Hannah not said "Patti LuPone?"
And, yeah, looks like rehab Daddy's back, but I never thought Jessa's sobriety was going to last.
(Ha. No, I only tend to avoid them if it's a serialized edge-of-your seat thriller like Breaking Bad or The Killing. I think I was just avoiding the preview for Looking because this week's ep was like a dream. I didn't want to break the spell. Yet.)
Posted by strummergirl 2014-02-20 22:32:08
Dunham was delightful on Bill Simmons' podcast though she is scant on spoiling the remainder of the season except she notes Patti as herself is as far as she is going in Entourage-level 'stunt casting'.
Really loving this season but I do want closure with Adam's sister Caroline and want **** to hit the fan when Shosh finds out about Ray and Marnie (who I somehow like together).
There's some theories about Richard E. Grant as Jessa's rehab friend. We have never seen him interact with anyone but her and some think it is suggesting he is a mere figment of her imagination. It's whatever, I just enjoy the hell out of Richard E. Grant.
Posted by HorseTears 2014-02-20 22:34:15
The rehab version of Drop Dead Fred? I don't know if I like the sound of that...
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-02-20 23:15:27
I was just teasing based on your Looking discussion (and nobody has discussed the "spoiler" since you left btw--it was one line and something you could probably predict. I mean every show has a "gay dies of a terrible drug overdose" episode, right?)
Ha I was joking--Patti had a horrible hammock thing on from the second I could see. :)
I was shocked Jessa wasn't even secretly drinking at the Hamptons actually. I mean would they have even noticed? I guess she was briefly actually making an effort...
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-02-20 23:26:36
That would be a bit much for me... He did give her a pill she took, didn't he? But working at a children's store sounds perfect...
I think/hope we will get SOME followup with Caroline. This season has grown on me, and despite myself I loved the Hamptons episode. Some fans thought Shosh's "cruel drunk" thing was too much, but every viewer had to have wanted her to say it.
Others have theorized that they're making Charlie look worse and worse as "payback" for the actor leaving so suddenly... Meh.
Posted by strummergirl 2014-02-21 00:24:51
Personally, I don't buy it but I have seen multiple people bring it up. Crazy TV theories never cease to amaze me and I never took this show leaving any subliminal messages before. But the show is one to not mine going **off** like the OCD episode yet I also think the darkness of Season 2 is left behind. Those character moments are acknowledged but I think there is a much looser feeling happening this season, especially when until recently nothing good was happening to any of the characters. It can't all be pitch black.
I am not 100% sure Marnie was actually telling the whole truth on the matter. She expanded on the pizza story but we are still hearing just her side and we also know she was far from the perfect girlfriend. It's just one part of the Rashomon story but the show can only do so much when a series regular asks out of a show after they re-paired him with an even more important character.
Shosh wasn't just being a viewer stand-in. I really do understand why she can go from thinking when she was younger that this group was amazing to finding each of them annoying and disappointing now. She also cheated on Ray last season for neediness and loneliness finding herself stuck between these groups of people, so I feel like it was in-character. Over-dramatic? Yeah, but it was cruel drunk Shosh.
Posted by HorseTears 2014-02-21 00:50:38
Yeah, I loved cruel drunk Shosh. It makes a character I already loved infinitely more interesting. The next time she's babbling endlessly about hair accessories or Sex and the City, you'll know there's some anger lingering just below the surface.
BTW, Jessa's comment to Elijah's friend (the cute brunette) is now my new favorite pick-up line: "You look like someone Robert Mapplethorpe would have photographed."
Posted by strummergirl 2014-02-21 01:19:25
Oh, I plan on quoting that Mapplethorpe line whenever I can. Sure I'll hear a few, 'I don't know who that is.'
Posted by HorseTears 2014-02-21 01:29:11
If this were some obscure Romanian art film and not a widely known pop culture sensation, I'd totally steal that line as well. The problem is, the type of guy who'd appreciate that kind of line is probably watching GIRLS, too.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-02-21 02:32:48
BTW, Jessa's comment to Elijah's friend (the cute brunette) is now my new favorite pick-up line: "You look like someone Robert Mapplethorpe would have photographed.""
Ha! I was watching with a good friend of mine, who I think knows his stuff. I gave a big laugh, and he just stared at me, clueless. I have to paraphrase but I also liked when the character that was directed at ("random pretty gay guy"?) was heard saying something like "I paid $40,000 for a theatre degree, of course I have talent!"
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-02-21 02:38:57
"I am not 100% sure Marnie was actually telling the whole truth on the matter. She expanded on the pizza story but we are still hearing just her side and we also know she was far from the perfect girlfriend."
Oh, personally I absolutely agree. (And in this case I can completely relate--if I kinda drunk at a party talking to someone I didn't know well about a breakup I was still hurting from, I'm sure I'd embellish too :P )
Posted by HorseTears 2014-02-21 11:27:59
Yup yup. I feel like every time Marnie describes her breakup it gets embellished. I'm actually interested to see where this thing with Ray goes. Though she's outwardly hostile to him at every single encounter, I thought the smile she had when she was discussing the advice Ray had given her was very telling.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-02-21 13:38:07
Right, and that's obviously some sort of progression--would she have even mentioned Ray (at least in that way) before?
Posted by HorseTears 2014-02-25 04:18:44
How are we not talking about this week's ep?? This was AMAZING. I mean....
Marnie's unreciprocated hug with Booth's former assistant.
Adam doing Major Barbara on Broadway.
The mother-****ing Patti LuPone cameo.
Patti LuPone's fake French Bulldog named Pippin.
Patti LuPone telling Hannah that Adam is going to start ****ing everyone in the cast. (Did you hear that one, Kevin Kline??)
Patti LuPone saying that "There are a lot of weirdos out there. The Elephant man got laid a lot."
Hannah telling her co-worker: "I'm sorry, but Patti LuPone just really f**ked with my head."
Shosh saying: "Are you afraid Adam's gong to leave you for, like, Sutton Foster or someone?"
Adam's new co-star's former role as a gay, disabled hockey player on One Tree Hill.
The enjoyment of watching Tony nominee Andrew Rannels' character ply Adam with advice on how to make it on Broadway while simultaneously making a desperate attempt to get in with him and admitting that the closest he's gotten to Broadway is "a handjob from a guy in Pippin."
Or what about Andrew Rannells' character advising Adam to make sure he hangs out at a certain bar where he "saw Tyne Daly get really drunk and fall down a flight of stairs."
Or, when he's rebuffed by Adam,saying "Well, don't come crying to me when Kristin Chenoweth passes out because you forgot to feed her."
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-02-25 04:40:39
I only just watched it :P
I loved the episode for every reason you just gave, and so I have next to nothing to say. I will say it seemed basically, plot-wise, like set up for the final four episodes--but I didn't care. And I guess now we know that Jessa's friend isn't just imaginary...
Posted by HorseTears 2014-02-25 05:11:19
Yeah! I have to admit those ridiculous speculations about Jessa's rehab friend being imaginary started to seem almost legit when he first entered her shop.
You're right, structurally speaking this ep is probably just there to set us up for the events coming, but if it's going to be this ridiculously entertaining, I don't care.
Even Marnie got some funnies in:
'I love Michelle Branch--'
Posted by AwesomeDanny 2014-03-03 01:52:35
I know most of us were probably watching the Oscars, but did anyone else catch this weeks episode? It wasn't the riotous laughter the last two weeks were, but it had some touching moments and featured Amy Morton!
Posted by strummergirl 2014-03-03 01:57:02
This episode was AMAZING. I can totally see Deirdre Lovejoy and Amy Morton as Hannah's aunts, Sarah Steele as the prudish cousin who has memories that Hannah has no recollection of, and of course, June Squibb. This was like a truncated August: Osage County. Living for this. Becky Ann Baker was the episode MVP for sure. I love her and there are times I seriously think she is my own mother on this show.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-03-18 13:56:52
Louise Lasser AND Patti in the same episode? Yes please! I just caught up with this week's episode last night, but it's made me pick back up on watching the Mary Hartman complete set.
Posted by strummergirl 2014-03-18 18:06:14
So wonderful. Just her reciting of the dialogue about old women on TV as shells was so beautiful and heartbreaking.
To me this season is easily the best of the three. I don't care if it crash lands the finale. It feels coherent, interesting, funny, and emotional all at once.
So..... from the preview of the last episode it appears Shoshanna might not graduate. That would actually send her into a downward spiral. Forget whether or not she finds about about Ray and Marnie, her screwing up her own future in such a way would gut her more.
Call me crazy, I want Ray and Marnie to work. That said, almost all of the struggle in that relationship, besides how long they could really tolerate each other's company, is to actually be out in the open about it.
Desi also looks like he may make a move on her. Based on those 'Inside the Episodes', I think Lena Dunham slipped that Desi was much more of a lothario and potentially manipulative to Marnie. I also may be projecting, because I will always be suspicious of the guy who bring guitars to parties.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-03-18 18:18:24
Yes, she was absolutely perfect. From the preview it looks like she's going to get drugs from Jessa?
I've come around and feel this season is the best too. Girls has never been great at their serialized stories, IMHO--they kinda tell them in chunks, if that makes sense, but it's worked for me this year after a sorta meh start (is Caroline--I think that's her name--ever even going to be mentioned again?)
Lena did kinda imply that about Desi. His girlfriend did seem a bit too perfect, and he's ALWAYS creeped me out (just his face alone when he plays the guitar) so I'm sure something will happen there.
I admit, I kinda wish Hannah had stuck with her job a bit longer--I liked seeing those scenes and her interaction there. I assume the job people, at least that one guy, won't be completely out of the picture, but I never know with this show.
Posted by strummergirl 2014-03-18 18:45:34
I am of the mind with Desi that he will be the example of the 'actor who gets laid a lot', like Patti LuPone's words of wisdom to Hannah re: Adam. His girlfriend seems great but he also mentioned that she travels a lot. Plus his whole introduction had everyone fawning at him. Girls never lets somebody in multiple episodes stay that too good to be true. I think he always got girls on the side. Like, I wouldn't be shocked if a.) Desi has lied to her about more than a few things and b.) there have been 'other Marnies', perhaps even 'other Marnies' that he has been balancing.
Out of left field: I feel like Desi could easily go behind her back to put out that song without her proper credit. Sort of an inverse of what happened to her with the video earlier this season.
I wouldn't be surprised if Hannah had some plan in her back-pocket. I am currently stuck at a job that I am planning to get out of. I am playing the waiting game in securing a temporary position, not ideal but better than where I was before. There is this burning sensation for me to just leave in a dramatic fashion, even if I like some of the people there, and 'truth-tell' even if it is embarrassing and it would look at lot like Hannah's. I would never go through with it, of course. In terms of Hannah having a fall-back. I feel like the show can often go that way, like with the e-book or the fact she had that GQ job in the first place. Hannah did have great news for her parents and I don't think her leaving a job that got her a nice pay-check is what she will tell them. I personally think the best course for Hannah is temp work just for in-between seasons so she can re-charge her battery and also for the show so we aren't all at Square One next season.
But I also think Hannah is having issues with Adam being happy. She admired more of the guy who was carefree and did what Hannah did with GQ, abruptly leaving that stage show in Season 1 because he just wasn't feeling it. But now he has the artist bragging rights and it is killing her and Adam knows it.
Also, I am also the opinion, whatever goes down for Shosh will have her be sort of molding her into who Hannah was in Season 1. She is just as naive, just as much of a chatterbox, but when she is mad she can be just biting.
I've given up on Caroline returning this season. Gaby Hoffmann is a busy woman now! I'd kind of love it if she was living with Laird the whole time and that was the reveal of where she went.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-03-18 19:56:45
"I've given up on Caroline returning this season. Gaby Hoffmann is a busy woman now! I'd kind of love it if she was living with Laird the whole time and that was the reveal of where she went. "
Oh, man. That would be *perfect*!
Posted by strummergirl 2014-03-18 20:08:05
For the three of us who view this Girls thread. Of course my first time on Girls Reddit board I got a major spoiler. How spoiler-y? HBO accidentally leaked the finale's Inside the Episode online (and still up and I have watched it multiple times). Not everything is there, of course as it is 30 minutes of TV in 3 minutes, but.... there are things talked about.
Marnie does kiss Desi. Clementine finds out and publicly eviscerates and attacks Desi out in the street. Marnie hides, upset, realizing she made a mistake. She's heartbroken in a different way. She tells Elijah about this kiss before the Clementine run-in, it appears. Elijah quips she is 'gonna regret it', not at all impressed though he also is crushing on Desi so w/e. Nothing about her and Ray, not explicitly, but it is noted she is getting closer and more honest with her friends, according to Dunham.
Dunham notes it is probably not the last we have seen of Desi. Possibly.
Shosh indeed got flagged and it did effect her graduation. She is not graduating and got flagged for something. Dunham is vague, the viewer obviously finds out in the episode context, but given what she notes about studying and trying to maintain a plan: I would say cheating (plagiarism, most likely) and/or failing did her in. She definitely overlooked something. Nothing explicitly said but that was what her meltdown was about. Marnie visits her after such a meltdown, it appears. The episode summary does make note that she possibly reveals or 'divulges a secret' that most likely points to telling Shosh that she and Ray were together at an 'inopportune time', personally, for Shoshanna.
Jessa does help BD with the drugs. It's in pill form. This is a friendship. I hope LouLou Lasser returns, if she is indeed alive by episode's end.
Shoshanna tearfully talks to Ray but he is 'not available' to her anymore according to Dunham. This does not exactly answer the question of Ray's availability also being a matter of him being with another girl (like Marnie) or not. Ray appears to just want to talk and Shosh doesn't want quite that. They seem to have more than one exchange. Cut of them with people, like Marnie and Elijah in the background (as in Desi talk), and after when the party, guessing it is related to the play's opening night, appears over.
Hannah totally did have a plan. She got into the Iowa Writer's Workshop. BOOM.
Okay, I was not expecting that and am incredibly curious how this goes for the show's whole future. I would be really surprised if this is just another opportunity for Hannah self-sabotaging. I think Dunham has always been set with Hannah as a writer and there is no way that program is going to be getting the treatment of the way Hannah's other stops along the way are treated. I just am curious as how this will effect how the show will be written.
Adam appears a bit bummed by this decision. Hannah thinks this will be a good move for their relationship as equal partners and artists but, like most things, it does not go it as planned as it did in her head.
Dunham had no intention of this episode as a wrap-up but new questions develop and questions simmering through episodes and this season still remain.
Posted by strummergirl 2014-03-23 23:04:05
"I've given up on Caroline returning this season. Gaby Hoffmann is a busy woman now! I'd kind of love it if she was living with Laird the whole time and that was the reveal of where she went. "
And WOW. I am even shocked by how much I got this correct and then the show just kept on GOING.
Congrats to Laird, Caroline, and their undoubtedly crazy baby to be.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-03-24 13:29:03
Ha, at the start of the episode, no less! Good call (and I loved it.)
I liked the finale a lot--but I kinda wish there had been some way to integrate Jessa's story, at the least, with the other ones more.
Posted by strummergirl 2014-03-24 17:55:37
I'll say that I really cannot see a way to give Jessa an in back into the show's world without her being a mess, much like I am very forgiving of the fact Marnie's storyline had a pretty rough road because Chris Abbott left the show. Jemima Kirke had to be written out temporarily because she had a kid. I could not really see how they could have her be clean considering her character history, so her on the outs in rehab and lying to nearly everybody, including her friends, to get the hell out of there, felt consistent. It is really hard to write an non-repenting ex-junkie who makes no apologies for what she has done. So they give her responsibilities that she destroys, signs that she has isolated herself quite a bit, and relapses. Her recovery intersecting with working for Beadie, only to be caught in a can of moral and ethical worms by an assisted suicide attempt is actually I think a pretty interesting road for her. If Beadie lives, I could see Jessa caught in a legal quandary, no matter what Beadie says in her defense. And then what for Jessa? Who is going to be her character witness? That being the cliff-hanger for that character felt right. I really hope they follow through on her implications. This isn't marriage or even reproductive choice. She finally obeyed and was helpful to somebody and we never saw her reconsider her options in those moments where Beadie is demanding her right to live. Jessa jumps at the phone even when that is probably going to lead to her being in even deeper ****.
I would say Shoshanna is a case where I am not incredibly sure if her fate was originally tied to characters because this just happened to be where she had the most to do. I think people are putting too much stock in Marnie noting that Shosh's balance of sexual activity and schoolwork did her in. Let's remember she also was babysitting Jessa and Jessa's rehab friend.
I do like that with both Shoshanna and Marnie, the show rejects both of their desires to have their comforts be tied to love interests. It is pretty admirable that their stability is not tied to a significant other and that their idea of such is actually pretty unhealthy and not very realistic motivations. To me that makes sense for why both of those characters would think that, with Marnie's character history and Shosh's clear obsession with what lady magazines tell her.
I liked the mirror situation of Season 1 where Hannah unconsciously made a move that Adam took as an affront to their relationship and both had to do with where Hannah lives and their relationship. It is clear Hannah meant no harm in telling Adam she got into the Iowa Writer's Workshop, but I do think she has been unquestionably driven by being in competition with him. Her parents don't think Adam deserves her so, of course, they are not even going to question it as are her friends who feel the same way- except maybe Shosh who Adam opened up to when he told her Hannah was his best friend.
I like that Ray made no declaration or showed any jealousy or thought of the Marnie-Desi situation. Whatever is driving his desire with Marnie is unrelated to Shosh but he also seemed to care about Marnie despite the fact these two were never interested in revealing they ever happened. To me there still seems some there there for next season. Or maybe this is the 'shipper side of me showing. I still think they oddly function as an ex-couple than vague acquaintances. Anyway, Ray and Adam for roommates next season.
Marnie seemed comfortable with revealing herself and Ray as it was some self-acquittal but, obviously, that did not go as well as planned. She also probably ruined her entry into the music business but not knowing when just not to talk. Desi was inevitable and Clementine was exactly what I figured she would be like. But, I don't think Marnie saw Ray as Shosh's ex, actually. They knew each other before either ever knew Shoshanna. There seems to be a considerable amount of unsaid character history. Also, I would like an explanation for why Ray and Charlie are also not on speaking terms around the exact same time Charlie and Marnie are on the outs. Could just be Charlie is just now erased, but I am in full crack-theory mode that Marnie was still not very honest to everyone about her Charlie break-up. Why that release of the vanity video? I am fine with the Marnie story-line as the show seems incredibly self-aware of her flaws but I still want her working with Soojin and write extremely twee songs, without Desi, in Season 4.
Posted by EricMontreal22 2014-03-24 20:28:46
I agree with a lot of that, and will try to come back and write more later.
Re Jessa--I actually somehow didn't realize the actress was out with a baby for some of the season. I did like where she came for the final episodes--I would have liked to have seen her and Beadie interact in *one* more episode--but I know Girls often just jumps into a character or story and shouldn't expect that. And of course it makes sense that her friends, while slightly concerned (excepting Sho to an extent) would be pretty unaware and she would be isolated from them. It's hard, especially for a 30 minute show to keep the stories feeling real but also interrelated. (Would Beadie and what happens to her have any repercussions to Marnie and the art gallery?)
I think the Desi character with Marnie is done, personally, but I'm not sure I get the feeling the show does. We'll see. (I also still wonder if that guy from Hannah's work will pop back up.)
Posted by strummergirl 2014-03-24 20:55:46
Dunham noted it is probably not the last seen of Desi, but I can easily see that going in the way of: He steals Marnie's song or dares sing that song with another girl, trying to take credit. Usually Marnie's instincts about men often blow up in her face later.
I definitely wished the show was an hour. Like the two-part premiere, which felt of one-piece, Dunham directed both and the stories were tied to 'Get Jessa out of rehab', made me really think that was perhaps a test run in that direction. Don't think it will happen, but I do like that there were more episodes. I honestly cannot imagine what would've been cut in 2 less episodes.
If Beadie lives, I definitely still want her and Jessa still close even if there is a lot of issues raised by what happened. Jessa getting a surrogate family, though we have never seen or met her birth mother on the show, seems in-keeping and I can think that maybe Beadie pushing the idea of mortality on her may have had some impact on her. I also want a Mary Kay Place guest-spot secured because I want a Mary Hartman Mary Hartman reunion.
Posted by StageManager2 2014-03-25 08:25:02
Congrats to Laird, Caroline, and their undoubtedly crazy baby to be.
I wondered if she's even pregnant. Maybe it's wishful thinking on her part or she was trying to pull another one over Hannah. Caroline is crazy and prone to tell stories.